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Thread: Pre-Prague Con 2014: Returning to Base

  1. #1

    Default Pre-Prague Con 2014: Returning to Base

    Returning to Base
    Roeselare, 16th January 2014
    +-1:30, 6 players, 6 planes & 2 AI planes

    Date of mission: March 1945 – May 1945
    Location: Germany
    Story: Me262 Jet Fighters are returning to base. On their approach to the airfield they are jumped by P-51 Mustangs. The FW190D's of the Papageistaffel are defending them.
    Axis Forces: 3x FW190D, 2X AI Me262 (More are possible)
    Allied Forces: 3x P-51 (More are possible)
    Axis victory conditions: By points - P51 shot down 1 point, every Me262 that crosses the map 2 points
    Allied victory conditions: By points - Fw190 shot down 1 point, every Me262 shot down 2 points
    Balance: Hard to tell, see story below

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I was glad yesterday evening when the group we play boardgames with also wanted to give WGS a try. One of them is very interested and persuaded the others to join. Off course they where all new players so had to explain them the rules. This was a perfect opportunity to play test my Prague 2014 Scenario.

    This was the lay-out of the map with the different entry points.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Dimensions of the map were 140cmx90cm

    Used rules
    Resurrection (When shot down a player returned at their entry point after waiting one turn)
    Altitude (Revised rules)
    No special damage except for explosion (newbie players and they already found it difficult enough to handle the altitude which I insisted on using)

    For the Me262 I tried several things during the game:
    Movement: I gave the Me262 the O-deck. Reasoning that the plane was in approach and thus lowered its speed in preparation for landing. The O-deck is a bit slower than the both the P and R deck which gave the attackers the possibility to chase their target with succes. In the beginning it flew a straight and then a D6 was thrown. 1,2 or 3 was a turn to the left followed by a right turn in the next phase while 4,5 or 6 let the Me262 first make a right turn and then a left one. After the two turns again a straight maneuver and a D6 to decide for the following two moves. It was often forgotten and gave a lot of collisions. To simplify it the Me262's just flew straight ahead on the centerline of the mat. Afterwards a second Me262 was introduced off-center. All Me262 flew constantly at altitude 3.

    Damage: The first one had a damage resistance of 15. It was rather quickly shot down by the allies and the Me262's after that one all had a damage resistance of 18. The idea behind it is that a Me262 once crippled had a hard time making it back to the airfield and mostly crash-landed some where else. So all Me262's returning are in top condition...

    Firing: The Me262's didn't have the ability to fire. The idea behind it is that they are returning from their mission and have used all of their ammo.

    The game

    The Allies won with a 7 to 4. Allies shot down 2 Me262's and 3 FW190's. Axis shot down 2 P51's and escorted one Me262 to safety.

    3-0
    The Fw190's (all rookie pilots) flew their Fw190 rather hectic with one of them flirting with the edge of the map far from the action. The other two made a few early collision which damaged one of them badly. One salvo of a P51 was enough to finish it. The Allies added points by shooting down the first Me262 (15 points) before it even was halfway the map. A new Me262 was introduced (flying straight this time and 18 points). The Fw190 pilots started to get the hang of it and started firing at the P51's while they where heading towards the new Me262.

    3-2
    While we where flying towards the new Me262 the FW190 managed to shoot two of the P51's out of the sky. Although the numerous collisions between P-51's and the FW190 also helped a lot.

    5-4
    The remaining P-51 managed to avenge his comrades and quickly shot down a FW190. Again FW190's collided and a fresh P51 finished one of them of. In the mean time a Me262 now flying only fast straight forwards was under fire by a P-51 but reached the other side with still 5 points left.

    7-4
    My P-51 returned right behind an Me262 and I was able to fly directly behind it and fire at it turn after turn. Quickly its maximum damage was reached and it went down.

    Because it was already 1:30 in the night we decided to wrap up and go home. Although flown by rookie pilots I had the feeling I'm close to a balanced mission. If the FW190's had flown better from the start and focused on the P51's close to the Me262 they would really have a change to avoid it from going down. We agreed to try it again next month so I'm curious if they will fly more efficient.

    Due to the current lack of Me262 mini's a Reggianne and a Kawasaki Hien served as Me262
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Changes for the next game
    First of all I would try new starting positions. Below is the new scheme of the idea.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The FW190 pilots found they had no headstart to really escort or protect the Me262. Both P51's and FW190 could reach them equally. With the new starting positions that problem should be solved given the FW190's the time to place them selves between the P51's and Me262's. A D6 is thrown to decide where the Me262 will start a their entry point. Although the entry point for the allies is very close to the point where a Me262's reaches safety the difference in altitude should be sufficient to protect a damaged Me262 from being hit by a freshly entered P51.

    Because altitude didn't have much effect in the game (P51's dropped a level down and everything was fought on alt 3) I would put the attackers higher, the defenders lower and the Me262's in between. The Me262's would gradually loose altitude however (a counter per turn maybe?).

    All Me262's have damage resistance of 18.

    Possible ideas

    Give the ability to the Me262's to fire a limited number of turns?

    Let them fly faster? Maybe make a custom maneuver card which allows them to fly faster than the attackers? I'm not sure about this as they will cross the map very quickly and it will be very hard to hit them.

    Use Flak? One of them suggested to put AA batteries close to the safety line.

    Give the Germans a target too? (not done for me as it is to far from history)

    All your ideas and/or comments are welcome!!!
    Last edited by Thomatchef; 01-17-2014 at 06:08.

  2. #2

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    Hmm, it looks good!
    Did you play Me.262s as automats?
    Did you think about variant for more than 8 players (just in case)?
    I am really looking forward to try this mission

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    Hmm, it looks good!
    Did you play Me.262s as automats?
    Yes the Me262's flew automatically. First by a system with a D6 to determine left-right or right-left sequence, afterwards we simplified it with just straight forwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    Did you think about variant for more than 8 players (just in case)?
    The more players join the more P51's and FW190's we will have. So for me an 8+ shouldn't be a problem. If an uneven number of pilots shows up I'm not yet sure to which I would give the extra pilot though. Historically their were only 5 FW190's in the Papageistaffel...
    The more players join the more Me262's at a time would be on the map as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I am really looking forward to try this mission
    I'm glad you are. This will be me first game I'll be a GM for so I would like it to be good.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomatchef View Post
    ...

    Possible ideas

    Give the ability to the Me262's to fire a limited number of turns?

    Let them fly faster? Maybe make a custom maneuver card which allows them to fly faster than the attackers? I'm not sure about this as they will cross the map very quickly and it will be very hard to hit them.

    Use Flak? One of them suggested to put AA batteries close to the safety line.

    Give the Germans a target too? (not done for me as it is to far from history)
    Like idea of limited ammo for Me.262 (last 50 bullets in evety plane), but 4x30 mm cannons are a strong cup of tea... But let's try!

    I have any oppnion on faster Me.262. Let's test it

    I would add more attackers if you want use flak.

    I think Fw.190s should attack only attacking P-51. Anything other could disrupt clear scenario.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    Like idea of limited ammo for Me.262 (last 50 bullets in evety plane), but 4x30 mm cannons are a strong cup of tea... But let's try!
    That's why I'm not a huge fan of giving the Me262 the ability to fire. Also I assume that when they are on approach for landing they did not have the time nor the space to maneuver themselves in a firing position.
    If I would try it this is how I would do it: I would limit the firing arc of the Me262. If a P51 flies directly in front of a Me262 (the ruler lies solid on the line for the movement card alignment and cannot sweep the complete firing arc) and only then they can fire a salvo. The salvo's are limited to maybe 2 or 3 per Me262.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I have any oppnion on faster Me.262. Let's test it
    Will do so. If I find the time I'll make a custom straight forward card which gives a little speed advantage over the attackers.
    Again not sure if that is historically correct. In approach an airplane must lower its speed to succesfully land. You could also assume landing gear is out which causes the airplane to slow down. The Me262 was the most vulnerable during take-off and landing so giving it a lower speed should reflect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I would add more attackers if you want use flak.
    Again not fond of this as this doesn't make the game simpler. I want the players to just fly an airplane and don't break their head about FLAK. But this was an idea of one of the players.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I think Fw.190s should attack only attacking P-51. Anything other could disrupt clear scenario.
    Then we totally agree . This is not done for me as it isn't historical and it doesn't suit the scenario. If both sides have a target then you have the risk that they just pursue that without looking and firing at each other...

  6. #6

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    I think you need to have the 262s react in some way to being shot. Even on landing approach, if someone starts shooting at them, they are going to try and evade. Keeping control of them simple is very important as well if the GM is also playing in the game so that they have to be AI planes (but with 8+ players, I would suggest the GM flies the 262s as a neutral player). So for a more advanced simple AI plane, how about two options:

    1. When a 262 takes its first damage chit (0 counts), they start flying towards the nearest table edge (besides P-51 starting point) and they increase speed to an A deck. that would require the P-51s to really coordinate their attacks, but still allow them to shoot them down.

    2. Use the WGF Solo rules, but in reverse. Determine the zone the attacking plane is in and than pick the maneuver based off the zone opposite of that one (someone would need to check if you could do exact opposites, or if you would have to do an left/right swap instead, see below). All maneuvers would be done at fast speed.


    Solo Rule adjustment

    If using the opposite zone theory:

    1 = 7
    2 = 8
    3 = 9
    4 = 10
    5 = 11
    6 = 12
    7 = 1
    8 = 2
    and so on.

    Using the left right swap theory:

    1 = 11
    2 = 10
    3 = 9
    4 = 8
    5 = 7
    6 = 12
    and so on.

    I don't have the solo charts in front of me, so can say which of those would result in maneuvers that would work for evasive actions.

  7. #7

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    Interesting scenario... I wonder how long the maneuver cards would need to be to represent a combat-ready Me262?

  8. #8

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    Some interesting idea's!

    I think you need to have the 262s react in some way to being shot. Even on landing approach, if someone starts shooting at them, they are going to try and evade. Keeping control of them simple is very important as well if the GM is also playing in the game so that they have to be AI planes (but with 8+ players, I would suggest the GM flies the 262s as a neutral player)
    Didn't think of that but you are right! With 8+ players it will be better if I fly the Me262's. In the test game I joined the allies to have an even number of players.
    This way I can also focus more on being GM rather than a pilot. Only thing I need to focus on for the Me262's is getting across the map. I would not let them shoot if they are player controlled.

    If they are approach they will probably evade but still focus on landing their plane. They are low on fuel, accelerate and maneuver bad at slow speed so and making a go-around only exposes them longer to enemy fire. So my idea would be to limit movement only to "sideslips". right-left or left-right turn combinations performed in multiple turns. Actually just like in the beginning of our game.

    For me the only way for a Me262 to successfully fly of the map is on the opposite side of their entry point and at a certain altitude (maybe 2). This recreates their position for an successful landing and turning final.

    1. When a 262 takes its first damage chit (0 counts), they start flying towards the nearest table edge (besides P-51 starting point) and they increase speed to an A deck. that would require the P-51s to really coordinate their attacks, but still allow them to shoot them down.
    Isn't an A-deck slow compared to the R and P deck the P-51 and FW190 are using? Using the A-deck won't they be very long on the map and thus be more under fire and easily shot down?

    Using the solo rules in reverse is also an interesting idea but I think it makes managing the Me262 rather complex if I'm flying a P-51 of FW190 to. But it's definitely worth to try.

  9. #9

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    Great scenario idea.

    1. ME 262 no fire.
    2. ME 262 reduce altitude by 1 step each card (pre-work out distance and altitude from start to opposite board edge should give you the decrease in every 1 or 2 or more cards.
    3. Once engaged adopt the Oberst's idea of evading the attack.
    4. You could add damage to some of the ME 262's, they have been in combat. Make it random. Draw a chit as they enter the table?
    5. Re-spawning is good to keep interest up but re-spawn in start area's.

    But an excellent idea for a scenario.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  10. #10

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    Oh yeah, A is slower now!! Can you tell I've not even played with the new minis Even if low on fuel, no pilot is going to sit there and let a flight of EA shoot it down while it's on final approach. It's much better to zoom off and try a forced landing some place else (a road 10 miles away?). Even if they managed to basically power guild to a landing under enemy fire, with out either losing the enemy or shooting them down, the 262 is just going to be destroyed by the P-51s on the landing strip.

    As for them exiting on a side other than their exit zone, don't give points to either side if they exit the long edges of the table.

    Also, for this type of game, you should always control the "target" planes as the GM. not only does it keep it fair, it keeps it more realistic since you can fly them like they should be flown with out much complexity. If the sides are uneven by one... so be it. They were often uneven in real life. As the GM flying the 262s, you can always use your ability to control the 262s to help balance the game if uneven sides. If the P-51s are the strong side, make the 262 more aggressive in it's evasion tactics. If it's the 190s that are stronger, make a 262 fly poorly and get shot down. As the GM, it's your job to ensure the game is fun for everyone else and that it fills up the allotted time.

    One last thing, you should practice the game with the same rules (GM controlling 262) as you plan to run it at the event.
    Last edited by Oberst Hajj; 01-17-2014 at 08:51.

  11. #11

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    I can not wait to play that scenario in Prague, Thomas. Well done.
    It seems we are getting some fresh ideas, are not we
    I am preparing a complete new scenario ror my event as well...
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  12. #12

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    Keith is right - approaching to landing is a critical moment of slow motion. Allied pilots knew.it.well and they did "Night intruder" missions during WWII. They were patroling over enemy's airfields in France and attacked on landing bombers. Karel Kuttelwascher (Night Reaper) shot down three He.111 in 6 minutes with his Hurricane. But that was during night, of course.

  13. #13

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    Sounds like a great scenario, Thomas.

    Of course you can add many special rules, but... why?

    We have already altitude rules. What about aim optional rule?

    Two hour gaming slot - short briefing - the Schwalbes come in for landing - low on fuel and ammo.

    One simple mission for both sides: Shot down the Me262s or defend them.

    I think the only ability the Me 262 should have is to change atitude when being shot at. The rest is a straight head on flight for the airfield. Those jet engines did not allow great maneuvers with low speed.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  14. #14

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    There is an interesting report online about the Me262:

    http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Im...LOTDEBRIEF.pdf

    Approach speed just before actual landing was 250km/h. Seems that the speed of the A-deck would still be to large but it seems acceptable for gameplay. However I would not use the A-deck because of the side slips. Just like Sven said, those jets were rubbish at low speeds. Maybe limit movement only to altitude changes and high speed turns to right and left. None of the tight turns should be allowed.

    Brains are working full throttle on this. I have many options now and will play-test the most interesting to see what I will use for my game.

  15. #15

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    I agree, only basic turns at "high speed". But requiring them to only fly straight ahead... might as well setup a gunnery practice game with towed targets. lol

  16. #16

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    Not that easy with a Dora on your six, Herr Oberst.

    ...and the P-51Ds will come from the side not from behind.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  17. #17

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    The main ingrediėnt for the game is ready



    My idea is to do the following with the Me262's

    -GM controlled
    -They use the straights, and wide turns from the A-deck and only fly fast speed.
    -Fly straight until beeing shot at. From then on they can turn to evade the attackers
    -When 8 points left the Me262 heads for the nearest side of map. No points for either side

  18. #18

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    I could use some opinions on the point system. Been thinking on it and can't make up my mind.
    First thought was this:
    Allies: 2 points per shot down Me262 and 2 points per shot down Fw190
    Axis: 2 points per shot down P51 and 2 points per Me262 who reaches the other side.

    However for the allies this does'nt make the Me262's the real goal of the mission. So I was thinking more of the following:
    Allies: 3 points per shot down Me262 and 1 point per shot down Fw190
    Axis: 2 points per shot down P51 and 2 points per Me262 who reaches the other side

    What do you think?

    Tomorrow if I'm lucky I'll be able to play test this for a second time. I will see if the changes make for a better game...



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