Don't get me wrong I am in favour of copyright law. I just don't see how it favours either ARES or we the players by not allowing us to make our own maneuver decks as ARES will not be doing so. No profit is being made.
So do I now pull my ship to air rules and copyright the rules and processes I have developed so ARES or someone else cannot 'borrow' them and sell them and copyright them as their own?
I hope ARES will look at the rules that others, not just myself, have developed and posted for free, so when they get round to producing torpedo aircraft, Swordfish etc they can look at these house rules and develop them as rules amendments for such aircraft. I and others have not put files in the file section for personal gain but to enhance and develop the game.
I am just sorry that ARES cannot see that.
See you on the Dark Side......
Is this new found respect for copyright being selectively applied, or are the vast swathes of Osprey artwork reproduced in certain quarters to become casualties too?
Interesting discussion.
I think the main point is, that maneuver decks and damage cards are not ready to download here.
Nothing more and nothing less.
So if anyone plans to play WoG without Ares Games Stuff he has to buy one rules and accessoires pack and one kind of the movement decks (+ miniature) he needs.
You (all) argue with the best intentions, but if there's a request on this forum - not to make Wings of Glory playable without a minimum of investment in Ares Games - it's understandable.
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
Interesting, isn't it. Seems like we have a classic Mexican stand-off here.
We wouldn't have our hobby if it weren't for Nexus/ Ares/ WoW/ WoG, etc....
Nexus/ Ares/ WoW/ WoG etc... wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us.
So what happens now? The lawyers win because should this site return to "the old ways", the lawyers will step in even deeper. Folks might have to go to court, etc... and that would only multiply the bad feelings -and kill our hobby. Then again should there be a heavier hand that appears, folks will walk away from the hobby and that would only multiply the bad feelings -and kill our hobby
Lastly for Herr Oberst: Seven 15+ hour days in a row?????
Here is to you getting some much deserved time off --and some help!
One of the things that may have happened here is that the Aerodrome went from a free site to a site with subscriptions in order to keep the site going; and arguably now there is a pecuniary gain in operating the website from a legal perspective, which means that someone can be deemded to be "profiting" from the Ares copyrighted materials available to the site members.
I am surprised that it took Ares this long to say something. As others have pointed out, this only affects THIS site. And only Ares copyrighted stuff, i.e., maneuver decks.
Yes, in that example I should have said the person opened up the airplane pack and kept only the maneuver deck It is a somewhat extreme example, but it boils down to the same thing. By providing free maneuver decks here on the site, Ares is not selling that deck via the airplane pack. It does not matter if we are stealing that deck from a store or via this site, we are still taking something that does not belong to us. This still applies if Ares has not reprinted that deck. For planes that Ares (or Nexus) has not made a deck for, everyone is quite welcome to make their own deck to use. But since those decks could and would be reverse engineered to make copyrighted decks, I am not allowing them on the site.
As Eric has pointed out:
1. No, these are owned by Ares now.
2. Yes these are allowed, so long as they are not simply a fan created version of the exact same thing. You could not make the all red MvR card and change just the font and call it a different card. You could however use all of the Nexus graphics to make a card for Kiefer von Loganstein for example.
3. Yes these are allowed, same rules apply as number 2.
4. Yes these are allowed.
5. Yes, and they are encouraged! Thats why we have a dedicate place on the site for them.
6. Its not. In fact, Ive reframed from asking Ares to sponsor this site just so that we remain independent from them. Ares and Andrea do support this site (via the info, updates, and prizes) and know they have a great resource here.
On your thoughts
A. Yes, Ares bought all the rights to the old Nexus products.
B. Making cards for a pilot that Ares has not made is allowed as explained above. But it does negatively affect the sales of official Ares Fokker D.VII models. Here is how: I print off 5 D.VII cards here on the site and then go buy 5 Shapeways models and paint them up. When Ares reprints the D.VII, I already have 5 from this site/Shapeways so I dont need to buy any. Again, Ares is not trying to stop us from doing that. Of course they would prefer us to buy only their products, but they know that is not realistic.
C. Because Ares is not running this game as a tourney game, so does not have official events. FGG does care about fan making copies of their products, if they did not, they would allow those copies to be used in official events.
D. This site was created and is ran by a dedicated fan to help further the game he loves. The site still does promote fan created content and aides. Ares does as well. What we dont support is copyright violations. For the first 3 or so years the site was solely funded by myself and the few members that made sporadic donations to it. In the last couple of months, funding has moved to a voluntary membership subscription system. This was done because the resources need to host the site grow beyond what myself and those few donators could support with any kind of consistency.
E. I dont see what all these control measures are that you are talking about. Weve simply removed copyrighted material from the site. Ares and this site have not tried to tell you which planes you can use, when and where they can be used or any such thing. You are correct that GW has a bad reputation when it comes to their control. I left their line of games many years ago due to their outrageous prices, but Im glad I did seeing their level of control these days. Unfortunately, that does not change that fact that they are still the most profitable tabletop game company out there or that they have a larger player base than any other wargame. You are also correct that we have a symbiotic relationship with Ares, and we as players need to realize that includes protecting their products from unauthorized distribution.
If your best friend kept coming over and barrowing/taking your tools or food, you would get tired of it after a while too. Even though he is your best friend and having him around has lots of benefits.
Also, there is a Yahoo Group for the game.
You are welcome to buy and use whichever models you would like. If you chose to source non Ares models, you should also be prepared to source the other necessary components as well. If that means you have to make your own maneuver cards or barrow the Ares decks from your official planes, why is that Ares fault and why should we be upset at them for something we chose to do?
Not everyone was upset with X Wing (I was not), but there was a stink raised about it and that was my point, not the actual number of people.
Im glad to see someone else pointing out that Ares has provide prize support. I know for a fact that they do in the US as well (outside of me). I also agree with you that word or mouth (and this and other sites) are their main source of advertising for this line of game. I honestly just dont think they are large enough to have a full blown marketing scheme and to keep production of all their games at the level they currently are.
Ive not looked, so does FFG provide the movement templates and base inserts free for download on their site? Ares provides all the damage decks in a single product (nicely priced). They even provide the rules, counters, damage deck, two planes and a maneuver decks at a really good price all in one package. There is no need for you to buy any other product of theirs to play the game. So how is Ares so different in this regard? Again, Ive not gone and looked, but I thought this site provided pretty good support for the Wings game. And by the way, this site and all of its contents are still free.
If this site is simply as store front for Ares and my AA site, please explain to me why I still allow posts about Shapeways and other kits to be made? Why do allow people to post referrals to other shops/stores? Just yesterday I told someone how important it is to support their local game store. Yes, I can see now how you would think this site he just to sale products for Ares and AA. Ares never once asked us punters to pay for this site, so please dont put that off on them. I asked you guys to contribute to covering the cost of this site as I did not want it to be restricted or controlled by anyone but us players. I dont see following copyright laws as 3rd party control either.
Play with dice for damage and convert the maneuver decks to a hex system, problem solved.
So if you print off 6 I decks and then go buy 6 Nieuport 17s from Shapeways to play the game, you dont see how that would be an issue for the company that spent hundreds of thousands of dollars developing and producing the game? Sure you, as a collector and loyal fan, will still buy the three Ni17 minis they do make, but they have still lost out on 6 you did not buy though them.
Perfectly acceptable, you will now just have to source those maneuver decks elsewhere as well
As many of us already own multiples of the decks that have been printed, it should not be that hard for us to create the need unofficial decks from the ones we already have. So we can still play all those non standard models.
And that is sort of the whole problem with this thread, people are not really reading it. NO ONE has said you guys can’t make your own decks… just that this site is not going to host them or make them publicly available. If you already own the deck, print off as many backup copies as you feel you need, copyright law allows for this.
As of this time, I’ve not been contacted by anyone else about issues with what is posted on our site (I have at the Anchorage, and that was dealt with at the time). It will eventually be applied across the board as we have time to address everything and any complaints are registered.
I’d just like to point out that no lawyers have been involved in these talks or even mentioned really. In normal discussions with Ares they brought up that they were not large enough to seek out and combat copyright violations. In those discussions, I decided that I would do my part in protecting those copyrights. If we truly want to see this game succeed and continue to grow, we should all be willing to do something this small to help the company prosper. We all want more planes and want them to come out faster, but our actions undermine that… even if it is a tiny bit.
Also, the game existed before this site was founded and I’m quite sure if I turned the site off tonight that the game would continue on. I’d love it if there was a way to determine how much of the sales market our members really make up.
Bottom line here guys is that Ares expressed concerns about certain copyright concerns they had and I agreed with them and have removed them from the site. If anyone feels this is too far out of line, perhaps this is not the site for you.
I think one of the points here is that many people would dearly love to be able to throw their money at Ares in return for some manoeuvre deck "spares". If they were available I'd probably take several dozen. yes, I know they don't sell them - yet - but I'm hopeful that this potentially lucrative income stream will appear attractive to them in the fullness of time.If you chose to source non Ares models, you should also be prepared to source the other necessary components as well. If that means you have to make your own maneuver cards or barrow the Ares decks from your official planes, why is that Ares fault and why should we be upset at them for something we chose to do?
Dom has just pointed it out so it would seem appropriate to take action on this.As of this time, I’ve not been contacted by anyone else about issues with what is posted on our site (I have at the Anchorage, and that was dealt with at the time). It will eventually be applied across the board as we have time to address everything and any complaints are registered.
No, I know they didn't. I just suggested when this came up that they could. It was just an idea.Ares never once asked us “punters” to pay for this site, so please don’t put that off on them.
You can buy a set of movement templates from Corsec engineering. You don't need base inserts as the ship stats are on the ship data cards, which they do post.I’ve not looked, so does FFG provide the movement templates and base inserts free for download on their site?
In that example, true as long as you only want to play (for example) a Camel vs a Dr.1. If you have a third model from somewhere else its a problem My point about FFG was that they have posted all the material I need to field a flight of TIE Bombers or B Wings. Of course I bought the models anyway....There is no need for you to buy any other product of theirs to play the game.
That's not exactly right. You can defend a copyright without having to register it in the US, but you do have to register it if you want to sue someone else for copyright infringement (even though you already own the copyright by virtue of creating the work). Obviously, though, having a registered copyright makes it much easier to defend the copyright if sued.
Maybe, maybe not. In the UK at least the fact he's written them and posted them on the site, and that the date and time of the posting is verifiable through the site records would be sufficient. Mind you, enough members here have read them to make an IP theft obvious, and the ensuing hue and cry......
My two cents: Copyright is always annoying. People always tend to get more for free, the owners always tend to forbid using some stuff to let them earn more money. I think ARES plays quite fair this time. OK, they put some ban, so to say, Herr Oberst agreed steering for a somehow even more professional profile of the site. Their rights, their contract. No one is forced to stick to the rules here. But staying here in the Drome, these rules must be observed.
On the other hand, we have been given a variety of quality products priced reasonably in recent years. WGF and WGF are now living games. I can still remember the year 2011 when Nexus was over and both games seemed to be dead for good. People were searching for the red fokker on ebay cursing the sellers pricing them so high.
Now we have waves of new minis and wallet capacity is the only problem. New mats, packs, and so on. ARES reads our minds in some way. No reasons to regret.
I took part in the Origins this year and witnessed Herr Oberst giving away prizes of ARES sponsored minis in numbers (ok, I won some of them as well).
This is the support. This is business. Have fun and let them make money. Live and let live.
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/wow_nexus/ if anyone is interestedAlso, there is a Yahoo Group for the game.
Well I think things have been clarified extremely well & we can all now get back to playing & talking about our favorite War Game.
To your Aircraft Gentlemen! Let the Dogfights in the Air begin.
My 2 pennies worth. In the U.S. you cannot copyright a game mechanic. Anyone else can use the card movement system if they want to. You cannot duplicate the artwork of the cards but you could print cards with no background and showing arrows as the movement path. Or you could use background photos or do your own artwork and sell them. You can also make numbered cards using a different font. You can also make aircraft cards using the same design but not the same background. I went through this with Blue Max. FASA acquired the rights to Top Gun and promptly put out Top Gun: The Game. When I looked at it it was Blue Max with jets. I called up GDW and asked about it and had it explained that there was no copyright on game mechanics or the accessories needed for the mechanics.
Quite right. Look at all the DBA clones that came out in the 1990s. You can basically take a wargame system and write your own material around it and use it and its entirely legal. What you can't do though is do so in such a way that may cause confusion with the original (or I guess another incarnation) - so in that example a WW 1dogfight game based on Blue Max would more than likely be a foul, whereas a modern or WW2 (or Dragonriders) version would be OK.
And with some of the things we are seeing on the SGN side of the house, this might come to be some day. I personally would loved to be able to buy extra decks as well
And we will as time allows. If a company or person should contact me about copyright violations, I'd move them to the front of my to do list.
So even FFG does not make the core component to their game available separately.
Ares posts all of the plane's stats as well. They tell you how many damage points they have, how many and what types of guns (in game terms) and even what maneuvers they can do. They just don't give you the phyical compenents to do those manuevers... same as FFG and X Wing
Yes, you can defend it, but your legal options are all but nuetured. This is why photographers have to register their images. In the business world, it does little good to defend a work if you can not recover compensation
I'm more concerned with ethical issues than just legal ones.
What I would have liked is for maneuver decks to be available as PDFs right up until the day that Ares announces the date it will be making them again - then they have to be withdrawn.
The important thing is that Ares revenue should not be negatively impacted - anything that would cost them money is right out, regardless of all other considerations.
It is my firm belief, based on observation, that by having games involving 3rd party aircraft, often with decks not yet in print and unlikely to be for some years, Ares sales increase. However, what I believe is irrelevant, it has to be up to Ares marketing people, no-one else. We can advise, cajole, request, but that's all.
I've introduced a number of people to the game. Many want to play aircraft not in print, such as N17s. They have all gone and bought 2nd hand or old stock Nexus boxed sets with the cards. Every one was a lost sale to Ares - had they made the cards, they'd get more money. They made a little, from the license fee for the Aerodrome Accessories bases, but they could have gotten more. Given the very, very reasonable prices for Ares products, 3rd parties just cannot compete when Ares starts producing. Until then though, better part of the action than none - and those who already have 3rd party products buy Ares stuff anyway when it comes out.
However, these are all arguments that have to be presented to Ares, and their decision respected. Anything else is unethical, even if not actually illegal in some jurisdictions.
Example:
Bases - Aerodrome Accessories
Pegs - Ares
Cards - Nexus
Maneuver Decks - Nexus
Ki-43 - Armaments in Miniature
Ki-100 - HBM
Neither of those two aircraft are on the list of Ares products for the foreseeable future.
Last edited by Zoe Brain; 12-04-2013 at 16:53.
So, I'd like some clarification on this one. Here is an image I produced:
Obviously I have the right to do whatever I'd like with this image. But let's assume I'm not me for a moment...
I asume it's not o.k. for me to download a copy of the image to the Aerodrome server without permission (the defaut setting). But am I allowed to link to it as an image (as done in this post)? If not that, then what about just listing the URL, like so?:
http://mortal.peril.org/nazgul/WoG/Jasta15/Klaudat2.jpg
Last edited by fast.git; 12-04-2013 at 18:58. Reason: Apparently, only a passing familiarity with the Queen's English.
Awesome! As I said, I have no desire to "steal" someone's intellectual property, I was merely concerned that the Corporate World had intruded itself into our little gaming world. The people who visit/post here all seem to be above board, forthright, honest, decent and honourable gentlemen and ladies. This site has been a refuge and an inspiration to me and I just want that to continue. I guess I can "stand down" and "rest easy".
Carry on,
Chris
No, but if you recall I also said they don't make the damage deck available. But thats not really an issue for X Wing players since you only need one set of damage cards and one set of manoeuvre templates; the astute X Wing player has realised that the most cost effective way to get into the game is to buy at least one (and in my experience 2 or 3) starter sets as its the cheapest way to get hordes of X Wings and TIE Fighters, and once you've done that you are set - you can field new types to your heart's content without having to give FFG a single penny if you don't want to. Mind you, thats fair enough I suppose. Wargamers can (for example) buy a copy of my WW2 coastal forces rules and play with any kind of craft they want without having restrictionSo even FFG does not make the core component to their game available separately.
I think I got the answer to that when I saw last night how many flight stands Boney10 has bought from you for his many, many Shapeways modelsplease explain to me why I still allow posts about Shapeways and other kits to be made?
Thats an interesting difference in the law (or perhaps in the application of the law) between the US and elsewhere. In the UK you don't need to register (in fact the government's IP office states there is NO register). And as a photographer friend of mine has found the lack of such is no obstacle to successfully pursuing IP infingements. So I guess if you do find someone has infringed your IP and you are out for money put the case through the UK court system wherever possibleYes, you can defend it, but your legal options are all but nuetured. This is why photographers have to register their images. In the business world, it does little good to defend a work if you can not recover compensation
Agreed. They could make a killing by printing spare maneuver decks, and I just can't understand why they don't see that. The cost per deck has to be a fraction of the cost of a deck+plane, and the print time also a fraction. Were I them, I'd be making a deck for every letter of the alphabet, including decks for which there is no model plane, and watch the money flow in.
As for free advertising... my Facebook pics alone have brought at least a dozen of my friends, and their friends, into the game.
Just to add a bit of legal perspective, in the US you cannot selectively enforce your copyright; copyright and trademark owners need to be vigilant that their intellectual property does not pass into the public domain. So knowingly permitting someone to violate your copyright may bar you from enforcing your copyright against others. This is why Mattel lawyers send cease-and-desist letters to Barbie enthusiasts for posting "new" Barbies (or even some satirical ones--they shut down the X-Files Barbie ("The Shoes are Out There")) and why Xerox lawyers send letters to editors telling them not to use "xerox" as a verb. As I said before, I was (pleasantly) surprised to find maneuver decks and am surprised it took Ares this long to complain.
Last edited by tusekine; 12-05-2013 at 10:11. Reason: Fixed grammar
Fwiw, from copyright.gov.
Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.
Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.
If your game includes any written element, such as instructions or directions, the Copyright Office recommends that you apply to register it as a literary work. Doing so will allow you to register all copyrightable parts of the game, including any pictorial elements. When the copyrightable elements of the game consist predominantly of pictorial matter, you should apply to register it as a work of the visual arts.
The deposit requirements for copyright registration will vary, depending on whether the work has been published at the time of registration. If the game is published, the proper deposit is one complete copy of the work. If, however, the game is published in a box larger than 12" x 24" x 6" (or a total of 1,728 cubic inches) then identifying material must be submitted in lieu of the entire game. (See “identifying material” below.) If the game is published and contains fewer than three three-dimensional elements, then identifying material for those parts must be submitted in lieu of those parts. If the game is unpublished, either one copy of the game or identifying material should be deposited.
Identifying material deposited to represent the game or its three-dimensional parts usually consists of photographs, photostats, slides, drawings, or other two-dimensional representations of the work. The identifying material should include as many pieces as necessary to show the entire copyrightable content of the work, including the copyright notice if it appears on the work. All pieces of identifying material other than transparencies must be no less than 3" x 3" in size, and not more than 9" x 12", but preferably 8" x 10". At least one piece of identifying material must, on its front, back, or mount, indicate the title of the work and an exact measurement of one or more dimensions of the work.
FL-108, Reviewed December 2011
When an image is clearly copyrighted or Trade Marked, you should ask the owner for permision to post it here. If this is granted, you should include that info and a link back to the owner's site. If the owner has posted it on another forum, you can freely copy it here as well. Them posting it in a forum implies they are okay with sharing in it. If not, they can contact us and we'll happily remove it.
OK, coming over from the other thread - TBH it was a pretty BS approach. Just saying "thats how the law works" is a bit of a cop out. Effectively saying "Its OK to carry on until someone catches you out". Surely better simply to say "Don't do it" and be pretty damned clear about it.
It's not a cop out. That is how the law works and how every aspect of copyright enforcement works... in all medias. We'll continue to do what we can as the cases arise as opposed to doing nothing at all. Or feel free to volunteer to monitor all images posted to the site so we don't miss anything.
It is, honestly. Just tell people its verboten. Put the onus on the poster and not some poor artist.
If i had the time I might take you up on your offer. But I try not to commit to doing or running things unless I know have the time and resources to do it properly
Though the burden of the law rests on the copyright holder to enforce, the burden of ethics rests upon members to be respectful of copyrighted material, and to use such material in the appropriate way, i.e. secure permission and give acknowledgement.
If a fellow member spots an image that could be in violation, that member should contact the poster or an administrator and point that out. The goal should not be trying to catch people; the goal should be for all of us, as a community, to hold ourselves to a high standard of respect for intellectual property. The irony is that many, if not most, of us post pictures without considering copyright issues because we are not oriented or desirous to violate copyright law; as such, copyright law is not on our radar. Additionally, many images are on the web in such a way that to know if using the image is in violation could be difficult to discern. Instead of considering the enforcement of copyright protocol to be arbitrary, it would be better to think about such monitoring as a group effort given the limited resources, and as such, it won't be without flaw.
In the original post, it states clearly that permission and acknowledgement must be received and stated before using copyrighted material; I think that qualifies as verboten.
+1
None of us want to break the law nor do I think we, on the site, do so intentionally. I agree with Eric that if something does slip by bring it to the persons attention to remove, if that fails go one more step up the chain for assistance (I am unsure as to who does have the facility to remove such items apart from Eric, Oberst and the Cowman so if all else fails bring it to their attention).
Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption(s).
Neil
See you on the Dark Side......
Neil, you are correct. Always address the poster first, and then one of the three of us if need be. Given Keith's and Ken's other responsibilities, I am happy to field these as the need arises. I would add that when contacting a poster, assume good intentions on his/her part. Mistakes happen, and the last thing we want is unwarranted accusations.
I find this an interesting topic to say the least. I will use my own dilemma as an example that I think is relevant. For a couple months I have been searching for a few OOP maneuver decks. I was able to procure one deck in a purchase of a WoW product from a private seller. No monies going to Ares. Still leaving me with the possibility of only being able to get the other deck from a long OOP Nexus product, again through a private party. Again no monies going to Ares. Do I spend $30 to get the maneuver deck, and a pile of superfluous product I have no need for? Not sure. I do support Ares, and am in the process of purchasing every mini available. I'm 100% in favor of supporting Ares with my hard earned money. But if I want to use an aircraft that Ares does not produce, what really are my options. I certainly don't know the game or the plane well enough to produce a maneuver deck on my own. I would suppose I could find somebody with the desired maneuver deck files they could send me. But I personally won't do that, just doesn't seem right to me. Akin to stealing in my book. So what I will do is wait and hope that an "official" Ares product is released that meets my desire. After all, I don't have to have every plane produced during the war to enjoy the game. And that my friends is why I play, purely for the fun and enjoyment. Is that diminished in any way because I can't fly N11s? Nah! Thanks to all who have participated in the discussion, it has been a learning experience, and fun. I do believe Ares is leaving a lot of money on the table by not making maneuver decks available. A pay to download model on the Ares site would be perfect, and extremely "viable".
William, you know you have become a full-fledged Aerodrome member when you have entered the OOP maneuver deck discussion, and when the darkside of WWII reaches into your soul, and you make your first WGS purchase despite public proclamations you would never do such a thing. You are at least half-way there. If you haven't entered the waters of WGS yet, just jump in; it will win in the end.
Last edited by 7eat51; 06-05-2014 at 11:26.
Are you kidding me? You, an envoy for the Dark Side? I would never have guessed you would be such a tempter! Kidding aside Eric, I used to do 1/300 WW2 air a long time ago. Was okay, but never really enjoyed it. Have done Nappies, the true black hole of mini gaming, and WW2 land for decades and never lost interest. Don't know why, but the WGS side just has no appeal for me. But nice attempt to get me in trouble with the significant other!
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