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Thread: Aerodrome Copyright and Posting Protocol

  1. #1

    Default Aerodrome Copyright and Posting Protocol

    Aerodrome Copyright and Posting Protocol

    In our attempt to adhere to legal and ethical standards, the following should be considered before posting anything to the site.

    1. It is acceptable to use Ares’ images when creating posts, files, etc., provided the images do not substitute for an existing Ares product, i.e. the images are not to be used in place of purchasing the corresponding Ares product. It is acceptable to use an Ares image to develop a new component that Ares does not offer, for example, customized ship logs and mats, to create teaching aids, for example, how to execute an Immelmann maneuver, or to include in a thread/blog discussion. If you are unsure about the use of an Ares image, please contact Keith (The Royal Hajj) or Eric (7eat51) before posting.

    2. When posting links to the content of online books, the books must be in the public domain.

    3. When using copyrighted images in a post, permission must be received form the copyright holder, and said acknowledgment must be included in the post.

    4. Avoid flaming – personal insults – when posting. It is one thing to vigorously debate an idea; it is another thing to personally attack a fellow member. If a member has caused offense, contact the member via PM.

    5. Be judicious when using CAPS. CAPS are often used and interpreted as shouting. Given the lack of access to nonverbal communication, a primary mechanism by which we derive meaning, when interacting online, it is critical that we are mindful of how CAPS, smiles, etc., fill in that gap. It is equally important to read CAPPED words within context; CAPS simply might be used to emphasize something, and not as a means of shouting.



    Links:
    For information on copyright law: http://www.copyright.gov/
    For dealing with troublesome users on the Aerodrome: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/faq...ublesome_users
    Last edited by 7eat51; 12-03-2013 at 19:29.

  2. #2

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    Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. If you are aware of copyright laws for your country that would apply to the Aerodrome or Anchorage, please send me a link to be added to the original post. Thank you.

  3. #3

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    With this new set of protocols in place, we will be removing quite a few files from the Files section that violate the new standards. Thank you for your help and understanding in these matters.

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    So presumably the manoeuvre/damage decks we have lavished a lot of time on will be disappearing?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

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    I'm afraid so Steve. You did some very fine work on those and hopefully everyone that managed to grab them before they were taken offline (just after I posted that above) enjoys them and gets a lot of use out of them.

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    Another forum I belonged to in the past went down this road and I think they probably regretted it.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Chum View Post
    Another forum I belonged to in the past went down this road and I think they probably regretted it.
    They regretted upholding copyright laws and being civil to each other

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    Thanks, for the update. Always need to know the rules.

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    Not going to get into the copyright discussion.....That is an endless debate. You would think that files that have been around for a long time would be grandfathered in......no one has complained about it to my knowledge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Chum View Post
    Not going to get into the copyright discussion.....That is an endless debate. You would think that files that have been around for a long time would be grandfathered in......no one has complained about it to my knowledge.
    Ares and I have discussed it, hence the change in policy.

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    How does this policy affect custom cards.?
    Are these still permitted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    How does this policy affect custom cards.?
    Are these still permitted
    Yes, as they are not replacement components. Pretty much the only thing game related this will effect is the posting of damage decks and maneuver cards. Ares and this site still promote player based game aids.

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    Shame a bit here, the loss of the manoeuvre decks will mean a lot of new players will not be able to field new aircraft and the rest of us field non Ares aircraft.

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    What about cockpits for the new larger cards, will Ares be producing new ones to fit the cards or are we allowed to produce new ones and post them here?

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    It's probably Wrong of me to point this out, but: All he's saying is "those files can't be hosted *here*".

    HINT, HINT, HINT.

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    I agree totally with the ethical stance but it would be nice if we could buy official maneouvre decks as separate items from Ares ( the revenge of the blister packs )

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Chum View Post
    You would think that files that have been around for a long time would be grandfathered in......no one has complained about it to my knowledge.
    Unfortunately, we don't have the authority to grandfather copyrighted material. Only the owners of intellectual property can do so.

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    Does this also affect the Photo manoeuvre decks that have been here for a long time or are they being cut also?

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    I'm actually surprised that they were allowed up for so long, given that at least 2 Ares staff are members here.
    My wife being an artist, I completely understand the issue of copyright, even though there is no retail source for the decks anymore.
    Karl
    PS: Steve; don't worry about your work being gone to waste; I'm sure many of us have them stashed away in memory. (and backup).
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles downunder View Post
    I agree totally with the ethical stance but it would be nice if we could buy official maneouvre decks as separate items from Ares ( the revenge of the blister packs )
    Here! here!
    (And with better images. Those new arrows are really hard for me to see against the new backgrounds.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    It's probably Wrong of me to point this out, but: All he's saying is "those files can't be hosted *here*".

    HINT, HINT, HINT.
    Nothing worng with that mate.

    I get the ethical point of it all but it seems a little silly.

    I assume (and I hate to use that word) that this forum is a link to the game and in its own way provides player support. Folks who buy their product do have some percentage of the rights they have "in hand". If copied product (that is not readily available) is given away as like here on the forum it really shouldn't be an issue. It only promotes the game. Now if you were selling it for profit then shame on you.
    I have been here and done that and members will get around it if they want it bad enough and you risk the possibility of leaving a bad taste in some of the member's mouths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    Here! here!
    (And with better images. Those new arrows are really hard for me to see against the new backgrounds.)
    Now this is a great idea and would solve the problem. I would love to be able to purchase so extra new official decks.

  23. #23

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    Although I agree in principle of the copyright protocol, I would have thought the amount of business this forum generates for ARES and others they would have let us produce the damage and maneuver decks for use with none ARES produced aircraft. We who put on demo's and participation games at shows give a lot of free advertising to ARES and others. It would be nice to have received the same in return. Its not like the files in question are being sold for profit. If ARES cannot produce the decks to sell themselves individually I can't see what the problem was. If and when they do, do so then I could.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  24. #24

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    Try finding an I-deck. Go ahead. I dare you.

    Which is to say, if I wanted to do a massive battle involving Nieuports, I'm going to have to get creative.

    And I have in the past. I've scanned decks and printed them out on cardstock. In the privacy of my own home, for use around my own table, I can't see how anyone could object.

  25. #25

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    Well, after reading both ends of this discussion, it is clear that the discussion should at the very least continue so that both sides are honored.


    Too much in the world today is dictated by legal arguments --which in my opinion is ruining life on earth.

    Some questions.

    1.) Do we need to be so greedy as to have everything legally written and followed? -- Especially when targeting the very community that has massively supported those that demand these "legal protections"?

    On a side note, just because something is legal doesn't make it right. (Just look to the Wall Street gangsters and banksters during their legal "bail-out". Gosh if anything in history was wrong, that was.

    My last question would be to ask:

    2.) How much money is really being "lost" by allowing these decks to remain as part of the Aerodrome? Is it much at all?

    Hopefully a compromise can be worked out because we don't need any more "bad feelings" in the world. We're here to have fun after all. Right?
    Last edited by Rick57; 12-03-2013 at 10:16. Reason: punctuation and spelling corrections

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbmacek View Post
    And I have in the past. I've scanned decks and printed them out on cardstock. In the privacy of my own home, for use around my own table, I can't see how anyone could object.
    Which is completely different than posting CP material on a web page.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Which is completely different than posting CP material on a web page.
    Karl
    And thank the gods for that.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Although I agree in principle of the copyright protocol, I would have thought the amount of business this forum generates for ARES and others they would have let us produce the damage and maneuver decks for use with none ARES produced aircraft. We who put on demo's and participation games at shows give a lot of free advertising to ARES and others. It would be nice to have received the same in return. Its not like the files in question are being sold for profit. If ARES cannot produce the decks to sell themselves individually I can't see what the problem was. If and when they do, do so then I could.
    Neil, how about changing your tagline to "Once more into the breach.....of copyright"?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Although I agree in principle of the copyright protocol, I would have thought the amount of business this forum generates for ARES and others they would have let us produce the damage and maneuver decks for use with none ARES produced aircraft. We who put on demo's and participation games at shows give a lot of free advertising to ARES and others. It would be nice to have received the same in return. Its not like the files in question are being sold for profit. If ARES cannot produce the decks to sell themselves individually I can't see what the problem was. If and when they do, do so then I could.
    I totally agree Neil.
    Talk about killing the goose that lays the golden egg.
    Think of all the money that we have poured into promoting the Game up and down the length and breadth of the U.K.
    Hours spent at weekend shows, and extras bought and produced to advertise the product. We could have just gone and had a private game, and never needed the spare decks, the extra games mats or squadrons of repainted kites. The old Nexus cards will never be used again by Ares so why are they being so churlish.
    I have a good mind to only use my Nexus kit at shows in future, just to prove that I can be as petty as they are.
    No perks from them, no extra perks from me in return!
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Ares and I have discussed it, hence the change in policy.
    I entirely understand the policy and entirely support it.

    I would entirely support any vigorous discussions with ARES aimed at making game components, especially manoeuvre decks, available as "spare parts".

    PS Can we also assume that the many aircraft illustrations that have been posted here will be going, and that members will be directed not to link to images that violate artists' IP?

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Can we also assume that the many aircraft illustrations that have been posted here will be going, and that members will be directed not to link to images that violate artists' IP?
    Pictures that are part of the public domain do not pose any problem. Pictures that are copyrighted can. The best thing to do is to contact the artist and ask for permission. I contacted an artist once, and he was very happy to grant permission, and saw that posting his pictures here with a link to his website was good for his business, while providing access to his pictures was good for member enjoyment. As for working through pictures, I think it will have to be done by the individual members, each of us paying attention to what we upload.

    To everyone, please pass on any resources that can help in figuring out what is public domain and what needs permission. I will add such resources to the OP.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    I entirely understand the policy and entirely support it.

    I would entirely support any vigorous discussions with ARES aimed at making game components, especially manoeuvre decks, available as "spare parts".

    PS Can we also assume that the many aircraft illustrations that have been posted here will be going, and that members will be directed not to link to images that violate artists' IP?
    Just one comment David on Art images.
    The ones I post here have been provided by the Artists themselves on the Aerodrome Historical Forum to publicise their works & because of their action I presume the image then enters the Public Domain.

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    As long as the rules are being applied fairly and consistently by the site team I'm happy. But I feel its important for the same courtesy to be applied to other IP holders as to Ares.

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    I can see this as being the start of a downward spiral into chaos. How many times have we asked ARES for separate maneuver and damage decks and for that matter why not damage counter sheets etc for both WGF and WGS? Only to be told no they will not be producing.

    Keith and other manufacturers make bases and pegs. Do they do so on license? Do they pay a fee to ARES? I don't know but they make a profit.

    Many members have designed and made damage decks, maneuver decks and other aids which whilst closely following the NEXUS and ARES originals are slightly different in their design. So too are the many maneuver decks, especially the photo maneuver decks. Of course they have to be similar otherwise aircraft would move differently but they are slightly different. They are not sold for profit, unlike the similar bases and flight stand pegs or range rulers. So why can't they stay if they are not for profit until ARES produce separate decks to purchase at least?

    Answer me that and I'll shut up.
    See you on the Dark Side......

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    I agree with Skaflog. And I note that Guntruck's albums with the wonderful plane cards are not shown. Is there a connection?

    There are many planes that we-- the folks on this site-- really want to have, but that are unlikely for Ares to ever get around to creating. The cards and altered decks were a reasonable way of satisfying that need. I too do a lot of demo work and post a lot of pix of those demos and think, between the ftf and electronic, that I've sold a lot of product for Ares. But I've also shown off a few Shapeways and Tin Soldier planes that made the scenarios more complete/more interesting and made me more satisfied doing it. I thank the art folks for helping make that happen (because I do really like having a 'card' to help new players recognize teir plane in a 'sky' full of unfamiliar types).

    This is a bad decision that impacts and injures their biggest fans and will not, in the long run, protect or create any income. Quite the contrary. If they piss off their advocates, lots fewer newbies will find out they exist. I realize that the Sails of Glory financial partnership with the plastic products sets up a more complicated relationship and I just wish it made things better, rather than worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kduke42 View Post
    I agree with Skaflog. And I note that Guntruck's albums with the wonderful plane cards are not shown. Is there a connection?
    Yes there is, the connection being that I was so feckin' annoyed yesterday that I took them down myself. We get sod-all support from Ares as far as I can see, yet they reap the benefits of a forum actively promoting their product - better than they do in my opinion. I took the view that if they are getting touchy about cards that they do not produce any more, and are not likely to produce, why should I bother promoting WoG?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brambo View Post
    What about cockpits for the new larger cards, will Ares be producing new ones to fit the cards or are we allowed to produce new ones and post them here?
    I've not heard anything about new cockpits, but as those are not game components (parts required to play the game), they are not restricted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Does this also affect the Photo manoeuvre decks that have been here for a long time or are they being cut also?
    Yes, as the maneuver decks are required to play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    I can see this as being the start of a downward spiral into chaos. How many times have we asked ARES for separate maneuver and damage decks and for that matter why not damage counter sheets etc for both WGF and WGS? Only to be told no they will not be producing.

    Keith and other manufacturers make bases and pegs. Do they do so on license? Do they pay a fee to ARES? I don't know but they make a profit.

    Many members have designed and made damage decks, maneuver decks and other aids which whilst closely following the NEXUS and ARES originals are slightly different in their design. So too are the many maneuver decks, especially the photo maneuver decks. Of course they have to be similar otherwise aircraft would move differently but they are slightly different. They are not sold for profit, unlike the similar bases and flight stand pegs or range rulers. So why can't they stay if they are not for profit until ARES produce separate decks to purchase at least?

    Answer me that and I'll shut up.
    Ares has said they would not be making those items available separately in the past. I've not heard anything to the contray, but some of those very things are being made available in Sails of Glory. So perhaps we could see changes to this stance in the future for Wings.

    As for similar products made by my self (the ones listed in the Official section on the site), I do have a license and pay Ares for them. The other products do not require a license, so no payment to Ares is made.

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    I'm actually kind of surprised at the reactions here. We were all up in arms when X-Wing came out as it borrowed heavily from Wings. While no one here is making money off the damage cards and maneuver cards (again, those are the only two things being pulled), Ares is losing potential money by people downloading and printing out those game components. I’ve personally seen several member request and use files to not have to buy a currently produced product.

    Ares has actually supported its players and this site way more than any other game I’ve been involved in. They give us their artwork to use, give us sneak peeks, actually listen to wants (though sometimes they are slow to react or do not agree). Heck, they even give out the rule book as a PDF for free. Pretty stand up on their part when you compare them to some other companies.

  39. #39

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    I agree with the principle of protecting Ares' products and understand the Aerodrome's need to indemnify itself against 'legal action' for it's members' actions.

    Some people will invariably just want to get "free" versions of game components whilst others simply want to have decks to match substitute models. If Ares is not willing to supply legitimate copies then you can appreciate the reaction of the gamers who decide to produce their own, rightly or wrongly. However, the site, by allowing these files to reside on their system, leave themselves open to action, so don't go giving them a hard time

    Ares, however much we would like to believe otherwise, owes us nothing for promoting their products at Shows.

    We also "promote" Shapeways, Air200, Litko, Doms Decals and many other suppliers of stuff we use for display games without looking for support.

    Yes, it would be nice if Ares supported the display games but we do this of our own volition and at our own expense. Conversely, we also have no obligation to promote their products either and I always recommended alternatives to Ares' products for virtually everything I use in my displays, as the supply of official products is poor when considered against the actual demand.

    At the end of the day, all I'm trying to do is get more people interested in the game and secondly, this site.

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    I'm just wondering why this has all started now, this site has been going a long time and this move was to make things better. It's such a shame.

  41. #41

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    I can see both sides of this discussion but have one comment.
    If Ares are not intending to supply Manouver/Damage decks for aircraft that are no longer available & then also consider Aircraft manufactured by Nexus that have not yet been reprinted by Ares where do we stand legally if we copy & print off for our own use or club use those items unavailable?

    Surely there must be a loophole for such items.

    I certainly understand them being against copying of items readily available such as in the RAP packs which are most reasonably priced but if an item is no longer available & there is no intention of it becoming so then whats the harm?

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    Ares has every intention reprint each of the old Nexus planes, so those decks will be available again. It's just not possible for them to make them all at the same time, just like it would not be possible for us to buy them all at the same time.

    I'll take a lot of the blame for the mentality on the site, as I allowed the files to placed here in the first place and for so long.

    I just put in the first of seven straight, 15+ hour work days (yesterday was only 13 hours, so it does not count. lol), so I'm not going to have much time to devote to this thread. So, I'll leave everyone with this little thought for now...

    Would you feel it right to walk into your FLGS, take a airplane pack off the shelf, and as you walk out the door without paying, say to the owner "Don't worry mate, I'm not making a profit off this and I'll show all my friends where they can come and get their own free mini as well. I'm really just promoting your shop and you will make more money".

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Ares has every intention reprint each of the old Nexus planes, so those decks will be available again
    This... now this I like the sound of. My wallet on the other hand...?!?

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Ares has every intention reprint each of the old Nexus planes, so those decks will be available again. It's just not possible for them to make them all at the same time, just like it would not be possible for us to buy them all at the same time.

    I'll take a lot of the blame for the mentality on the site, as I allowed the files to placed here in the first place and for so long.

    I just put in the first of seven straight, 15+ hour work days (yesterday was only 13 hours, so it does not count. lol), so I'm not going to have much time to devote to this thread. So, I'll leave everyone with this little thought for now...

    Would you feel it right to walk into your FLGS, take a airplane pack off the shelf, and as you walk out the door without paying, say to the owner "Don't worry mate, I'm not making a profit off this and I'll show all my friends where they can come and get their own free mini as well. I'm really just promoting your shop and you will make more money".
    Sorry mate, I don't agree with your example.....a little extreme.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I get it but simply put it will leave a bad taste in certain members mouths in relation from top down...that is from Ares to this site.....and I understand their frustration with the issue.

    I do think it is admiral of you to take the blame....and with that maybe it is time to start winding up this conversation as the items in question will not return. However as one other member stated they just can't be put on this site. If someone wants it bad enough they will get it.

  45. #45

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    Do Ares own the rights to all previous products frm Nexus' Wings of War? If not, how can they limit some other party from doing as they wish with such items? Just so we are all clear on this, which of the following are "approved" and which are not:

    1. Reprints of Nexus WoW Damage and Maneuver Decks?

    2. Alternate, fan created, aircraft cards utilizing original artwork/photos of planes (but not specific pilot/paint) that had previously been made by Nexus?

    3. Alternate, fan created, aircraft cards utilizing original artwork/photos of planes (but not specific pilot/paint) that are currently made by Ares?

    4. Original, fan created aircraft cards for aircraft not produced by either Nexus or Ares?

    5. Are we allowed to post pictures of repainted Ares aircraft?

    6. When did this site become an officially sponsored/endorsed/controlled Ares entity?

    Thoughts:

    A. If Ares does not own the rights to all Nexus products, how can they limit anyone's use of such items, ex. Damage and Maneuver decks?

    B. How would fan created aircraft cards of different Fokker D.VII (for example) negatively affect the sales of official Ares Fokker D.VII models? If they are not Ares paintjobs and not Ares background, do they even have legal/ethical/moral grounds to prevent someone from creating their own aircraft cards and sharing them with their friends (through a website such as this)?

    C. FFG doesn't care about fan created cards for their X-wing game, as they are "unofficial" and are not permitted in "official" FFG sponsored events, thus they are not deemed a threat to the intellectual property rights/profits of the game manufacturer. If FFG comes out with an "official" product in the future, it merely supercedes and replaces/nullifies the "unofficial" version.Why is Ares so concerned?

    D. I always thought that this great website was the creation of a dedicated and tallented fan who created a place where fellow fans of his favorite game (was Nexus' Wings of War, now Ares' Wings of Glory) could share ideas, creations, inspiration with each other. I always thought that it was great that the creators of this game we enjoy so much also visited this website, shared their thoughts and "official news". I had no idea that it was a corporate organ/subsidiary of Ares Games or the Wings of War/Glory designers. How is this site funded? Does Ares subsidize the costs of operating Wings of Glory Aerodrome?

    F. I have always upheld the intellectual property rights of individuals and organizations but sometimes it goes to far. I do not mean to denigrate the host/moderator of this wonderful website or the creators of our favorite game, nor do I wish to sound paranoid or engage in panic-mongering. I just have to wonder at the inspiration for all these control measures. There may have been some things posted on this website that could be seen as violating copyright laws but what has really been the harm done? Excessive control can and does happen in the gaming industry, just look at Games Workshop. Once this gaming giant was the envy of every other gaming company out there and enjoyed enormous fan support (and accordingly hig profits). But, excessive control (and greed) on the part of GW has ruined the company's good name. There are hordes of gamers who actively and vocally advocate against GW. Others refuse to buy any official products from the manufacturer and instead (if they still play the game) only purchase used products on-line. Neither Ares games or the fans of Wings of Glory want to see that happen here. The people who visit and post here are some of the most ardent fans of this game on the planet and, while Ares owes nothing to the users of its products, neither does it gain anything by alienating these unpaid agents and ambassadors who have done more than any advertising campaign/agency to promote sales of Ares products. It's a symbiotic relationship; we need each other. Lets just promise to respect each other and limit the unnecessary (and irritating) control measures.

    If worse comes to worst, and Ares cannot keep from feeling they need to control every aspect of this game we enjoy so much, maybe we need a Yahoo Group, or such, where we can freely share our favorite hobby with minimal interference. There would be no way it would be as awsome as WoG Aerodrome was but would be free from "corporate control". I am not advocating for this, nor do I want this... I want the Aerodrome as awsome (and independent) as it was.

    Chris

  46. #46

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    So for everyone who buys Nexus/Ares, there is good news. For those who buy models from other sources, foad off?

    Much as I disliked the push from the other sources (seemed like unpaid advertising); they do make a significant quantity of the models in use and they require decks. Is the premise that you have to buy a model and toss it to properly equip your non-ares birds or is it simply advocating that you swap the decks around - which I would find unacceptable - but that's just me.

    Now if ares is willing AND able to produce individual stand alone decks, no problem. But if they are not, then I see no difference betwixt ares and 40k.

  47. #47

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    Just a few observations on recent postings.

    First off, were were not "all up in arms" over X Wing. A small portion of the community had a beef, but those that looked into it realised that X Wing and Wings of Glory are nowhere near the same game. Different flight mechanics, different combat system. In fact the flight system is essentially the same as something I've seen used for naval games since the 1960s. (and that said, there's nothing particularly innovative about the Wings of Glory system - look back over the last 40 years and you'll see similar mechanisms used in wargames and board games. Packaging too, the way that WGF/S models are packaged is identical to packaging for pre-painted WW2 model aircraft that i used to buy back in the 70s)

    Its not true to say that Ares haven't supported UK gamers running games at shows. They have provides some models and accessories for the northern and southern "stashes", which Chris and Neil use at shows. That said, they do seem to rely 100% on this site and the goodwill of players to promote their product. I'm sure there is some Ares WGF/S advertising going on somewhere, but if so its well hidden. Ares probably do owe a vote of thanks to many of the members here (and to the various Shapeways designers) for keeping their game alive after the death of Nexus.

    Back to the subject of X Wing - FFG also provide excellent support to their players, with just about everything you need t play the game available online (standfast damage decks, but its a single deck for the whole game and if you have bought a starter set, which is the most cost effective way to buy the models you have all you need). I have no need to buy their Lambda shuttles since all the cards and materials can be downloaded somewhere. Same with their TIE bombers. But heck, having made up my own components for the half dozen Micro Machines proxies that I have I bought some anyway. And the support and community that exists through the (free) forums that have sprung up ("A Few Maneuvers" in particular) is pretty darned good.

    Which I guess gets on to the comments regarding how the feel of this site has changed recently. Which seems to have kicked off about the time that charging for above-basic membership kicked in. I make no comment about that other than to refer back to my earlier thoughts - the forum is essentially a shopfront and advertising portal for Ares and Aerodrome Accessories and so IMHO it would have been appropriate for Ares to support it rather than expecting punters to pay for it. But thats a decision thats been made. Water under the bridge and a sensible arrangement chosen.

    I think the "problem" (such as it is) with WGF/S is the resource intensive nature of the game in terms of damage decks and manoeuvre cards. It is both a blessing and a curse, as we are finding just now.

  48. #48

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    For myself, I can understand the issue of copyright.
    I also see that the damage decks , as game components, would affect people buying the Rules and assessories pack.
    What I can't see is the manoeuvre decks being an issue.
    To play the game you first need the rules, damage decks and counters. Yes the rules can be downloaded, ok we were close to the bone with damage decks, but these now gone, no components available elsewhere. So to start off we need the basic kit to play.
    If the game was still essentially a card game then again I would understand the cards and manoeuvre decks being a problem, but the game is now not a card game any more.
    No one , I believe, is suggesting we don't buy Ares products, just look at the threads for the new series, ok I personally had a problem with the Sopwith Triplane model, but this is the only model I have not bought all of.
    I will be buying all but one of the nest series also. But as we all know it has taken a while for each series to come out and the air craft types are limited. So a lot of us looked else where to boost our enjoyment of the game.
    At the many shows I have done, a model display has been shown and has attracted many people to stop look at the models, then join in. A lot of these have gone on to buy the RAP or the Duel set for WW1, so by us having different types of aircraft in the game with their associated man decks surely has not affected Ares sales,
    I would argue the contrary, with the different models in the game, I have used, Roland D2, Albatross D2, Sopwith Pups, Sopwith Strutters, Aeg4, Sopwith Dolphin, Hannover & Halberstadt 2 Seaters, we have "sold" more official models, Rules packs or Duel packs, than by just having them on shop displays.
    I am sure I am not the only member here who owns a large collection of models and I also use most in rotation way, but without those extra man decks I would not be able to and quite likey would not have been as enthusiastic about this game I enjoy so much.
    If Ares sold the extra deck, fine, but it has been said time after time, they don't think its viable.
    Again I used the extra man decks for own collection , I don't sell any so come on Ares give us a break, we all enjoy this game and play regularly, how about letting us keep the manoeuvre decks for our non standard, hopefully yet, models.

  49. #49

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    Well said Mr Manley I agree with everything you said ,I do not play X-Wing but my LGS run lots of demos and I know they get fantastic support .I myself run games for Ambush Alley Games and the support they give me is superb and they are my biggest sponsor for the work I do for the Royal British Legion ,their forum and on line shop are both full of free official and fan made stuff so some other companies do give lots more support and after sales care than Ares and a lot don't . Hats off to the Oberst as well for paying for a licence for his products there is so much blatant copy right abuse in wargaming .

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Maes View Post
    2. Alternate, fan created, aircraft cards utilizing original artwork/photos of planes (but not specific pilot/paint) that had previously been made by Nexus?

    3. Alternate, fan created, aircraft cards utilizing original artwork/photos of planes (but not specific pilot/paint) that are currently made by Ares?

    4. Original, fan created aircraft cards for aircraft not produced by either Nexus or Ares?

    5. Are we allowed to post pictures of repainted Ares aircraft?

    6. When did this site become an officially sponsored/endorsed/controlled Ares entity?
    Questions 2 and 3 - approved. Ares is supportive of using the images to create customized cards. By definition, a customized card is not a replacement for an Ares product.

    Question 4 - approved. These are not replacements for existing Ares products.

    With the above questions, the word replacement does not mean "in addition to", but refers to reproducing existing Ares products on one's own that would preclude the need to purchase those products. So it is one thing to take an existing plane card, for example, and to modify it to represent a pilot not offered by Ares; it is another thing to reproduce a plane card offered by Ares. The former is not a replacement; the latter is.

    Question 5 - approved.

    Question 6 - This site is not an officially sponsored/endorsed/controlled Ares entity? It is independent of Ares, created and controlled by Keith. Operating independently, though, does not grant us the right/authority to violate copyright law and the protection of IP. Personally, I think Keith's desire to uphold a high ethical standard is admirable. Like any entity, evolution in thought, values, processes, products, etc., is inevitable, if such an entity is to survive, let alone thrive. The Aerodrome is no exception. Keith has assumed blame for allowing certain files to be uploaded in the past. Going forward, the desire is to more fully honor copyright law, not only as a measure of legal compliance and protection, but as an ethical stance.

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