Advice on painting RFC Nieuport 17

[kawalski]

Hi,

My current paint project is a couple of Shapeways Nieuport 17's.

While it's been done before on this forum I was thinking of doing one of them as Albert Ball's famous A213



The question I have & the main reason for this post is what to do the 2nd N.17?

I haven't been able to find any images for contemporary aircraft that would have flown with Ball at the same time. I have discovered that Ball's best friend Ernest Leslie Foot flew A212 but have no idea what flight he was in or his aircraft markings. I'd assume he was also in A Flight but any help would be appreciated.
From what I've gathered the olive drab that Balls aircraft is painted is fairly standard for the period (September 1916), I'm not sure when they started to paint them silver.
My initial thoughts are to paint both aircraft Olive Drab & go with A1 for ball & A2 for Foot but I've noticed alot of the later n.17's are silver so I'm not sure if I should do the 2nd aircraft silver or not (or A2 for that matter)

I managed to find some excellent screen shots from "The rise of flight" game that I've found to be excellent reference material



This is Lt McKissock's aircraft B1514 A4



This is Lt H. Kirten's aircraft A6713 A3



This is Lt D.C. Murray's aircraft A6718 A3

The only problem is they are all from a later period (early to mid 17) long after Ball had left 60 squadron.

Any thoughts? Reference material, also any help in finding appropriate decals to suit would be appreciated.

[gully_raker]

G'day Noel!
Do you have the Osprey Nieuport aces or the 60 Sqd books?
The latter one shows that the Camo was still in use in November 16 but by February 17 the Aircraft were then Silver.
It has a colour profile of Ltn J M J Spencer in B 4 with camo like Ball's. Cowl is Silver & Number on tail is A125.

Hope this helps.

[kawalski]

G'day Noel!
Do you have the Osprey Nieuport aces or the 60 Sqd books?
The latter one shows that the Camo was still in use in November 16 but by February 17 the Aircraft were then Silver.
It has a colour profile of Ltn J M J Spencer in B 4 with camo like Ball's. Cowl is Silver & Number on tail is A125.

Hope this helps.

I've got a copy (60 Sqd) on the way from the book depository so its probably a couple of weeks away. I'm still tempted to go one olive the other silver even know they aren't contemporary. WoW isn't really about creating squadrons of matching aircraft (that's just my OCD tendencies) it's more about commemorating & honouring iconic aircraft & pilots (& having fun with your mates). Food for thought, thanks for the info Barry.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I must admit that flying a whole squadron of similar aircraft is not necessary in Wings, but it does make an impression on the table Noel. However, for most purposes I do like to fly a wingman for my pilots. In Ball's case this is not really needed as he was a loner at this period. It was not until he became a flight commander in 56 that he took to flying with a group and even then he tried to get away alone as often as he could. As Ball spent some time in sorties with Foot, it may be assumed that they were in the same Flight, but I have not found any solid evidence to that effect.
Rob.

[Zoe Brain]

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/f/113/9

60 Sqdrn (Captured May 1917)



Jan 1917- Jan 1918




1 Sqdrn Sept 1917

[Dom S]

A 60 squadron wingman for Ball is extremely problematic unfortunately - Ball's N.17 was a *very* early model (by RFC standards at least - it had been in production for a good few months, but the RFC was firmly at the back of the queue for it, as obviously the French wanted to get their own needs sorted out first, and it took a while to get British production of it up and running.) Only a handful of others were in British service at that time (circa September 1916.)

Additionally several of the early ones had "horseshoe" engine cowlings, not the full round one like A213, which means they look more like Nieuport 16s than 17s anyway.... By the time the 17 was being delivered to the RFC in any numbers, Ball had been posted home, and Nieuports were being delivered in aluminium dope, not camo. As Rob says, Ball was famed for flying solo anyway, but when he did have a 60 squadron wingman, they'd probably be in a Nieuport 16 (my RFC Nieuport "bible" says Foot's A212 was a 16), and not a 17 like Ball's.

Dom.

PS - A further rummage in the bumper book of British Nieuports reveals only a handful of suspects - Ball's former mount A201 (which had the Nieuport 16 style horseshoe cowling) A203 (no photo that I can find) and A215 (again no photo, and only delivered a few days before Ball left the squadron.) Typically enough, the only other camoed round cowling N.17 with a photo that I can find is A200 - unfortunately that was the aircraft that A213 replaced....

[flash]

60 Sqn Silver N.17 - number A274 marked as C2 - Arrived early Nov 1916, flown by Lt Henry Meintjes then Lt William M Fry 15 Dec 1916 - 19 Feb 1917
60 Sqn Silver N.17 - number A6646 Marked C5 - with Blue cowling flown by 2Lt Keith 'Grid' Caldwell Feb 1917

[Dom S]

Both too late though - Ball left 60 squadron 3rd October 1916.

[Rabbit 3]

One thing I`m wondering is just how standard A 213`s colour scheme actually is.
Most of the 60 Squadron Nieuport illistrations I`ve seen either show them in a green/brown camoflage for the earlier aircraft as with Balls earlier A 201 and overall silver dope for the later planes.
In each case these are French style colour schemes straight from the factory but with British insignia added.
Now most Illistrations of A 213 show it with a British style Khaki greeen/PC 10 finish and that suggests to me that it had a repaint at some point, perhaps even after Ball left `60 when he was serving with 56 Squadron since he was allowed to keep the plane as a personal mount.

[Dom S]

Yes, probably non-standard, but not actually a repaint - most Nieuports at that time were in French brown and green camo, while A213 was one of a handful built by the French for the RFC (as opposed to built for French use and diverted.) As such it wasn't actually PC10, but rather had the upper surfaces done in French olive drab - the closest "stock" colour the French factory had. I seem to recall it was a bit greener than PC10, but broadly similar.

(Mainly going from the Osprey on Nieuport aces here - info on A213 is pretty much based on inferences from a single photo though, iirc, so it could conceivably be that it was actually standard brown and green, but the light in that photo means the demarcations just aren't evident.)

[Flying Helmut]

If I were painting them, I'd do them both in similar brown/green, and call them my Foot-Ball team! (groan)

<<sorry>>

Tim

[gully_raker]

If I were painting them, I'd do them both in similar brown/green, and call them my Foot-Ball team! (groan)

<<sorry>>

Tim

Welcome to the Pun-Club Tim.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Good one Tim.
Rob,

[kawalski]

Excellent replies guys, thanks. This is just the sort of response I was hoping for. You've given me much food for thought. I am tempted to paint them instead as early to mid 17 silver paint scheme now. Perhaps Bishop or Caldwell rather than Ball. I might wait until my osprey 60 squadron book arrives before making a decision. I've already painted a few Pup's in the olive so perhaps the silver will make them stand out.

[kawalski]

A 60 squadron wingman for Ball is extremely problematic unfortunately - Ball's N.17 was a *very* early model (by RFC standards at least - it had been in production for a good few months, but the RFC was firmly at the back of the queue for it, as obviously the French wanted to get their own needs sorted out first, and it took a while to get British production of it up and running.) Only a handful of others were in British service at that time (circa September 1916.)

Additionally several of the early ones had "horseshoe" engine cowlings, not the full round one like A213, which means they look more like Nieuport 16s than 17s anyway.... By the time the 17 was being delivered to the RFC in any numbers, Ball had been posted home, and Nieuports were being delivered in aluminium dope, not camo. As Rob says, Ball was famed for flying solo anyway, but when he did have a 60 squadron wingman, they'd probably be in a Nieuport 16 (my RFC Nieuport "bible" says Foot's A212 was a 16), and not a 17 like Ball's.

Dom.

PS - A further rummage in the bumper book of British Nieuports reveals only a handful of suspects - Ball's former mount A201 (which had the Nieuport 16 style horseshoe cowling) A203 (no photo that I can find) and A215 (again no photo, and only delivered a few days before Ball left the squadron.) Typically enough, the only other camoed round cowling N.17 with a photo that I can find is A200 - unfortunately that was the aircraft that A213 replaced....

Thanks for the reply Dom, do you mind if I ask what the name of Nieuport "Bible" book that you use for reference is?

[Dom S]

This one - problematic to get hold of these days, although I believe it's available as a (moderately expensive) PDF at least now. Glad I was lucky enough to pick up the hard copy when it was in print.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nieuports-RN.../dp/0955573408

[csadn]

If I were painting them, I'd do them both in similar brown/green, and call them my Foot-Ball team! (groan)

<<sorry>>

[Palpatine] You have done well, my young apprentice.... [/Palpatine]

>;)