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Thread: Schräge Musik Rules in pictures

  1. #1

    Default Schräge Musik Rules in pictures

    Schräge Musik rules in pictures

    In the new WGS rules it’s possible to equip heavy fighters with a Schräge Musik armament.


    Some axis WW II night fighters used this armament of upward firing cannons to attack enemy bombers without a risk.



    You can replace the forward or backward standart armament of the Bf.110 with a Schräge Musik token.

    It makes sense to replace the A firing rear gun.




    If you replace the forward or backward standart armament, the remaining standart armament can still fire.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-10-2013 at 12:12. Reason: remaining standart armament

  2. #2

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    Standart rules
    There are no altitude rules and no collision rules.

    When the planes overlap, the heavy fighter is able to shot at the bomber with two damage tokens.




    The direction of the Schräge Musik armament does not matter.



    If you replace the forward or backward standart armament, the remaining standart armament can still fire.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-10-2013 at 12:11. Reason: remaining standart armament

  3. #3

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    Advanced rules (same altitude level)

    There are altitude rules and collisions.




    It isn’t exactly described, but it should be clear, that Schräge Musik can’t fire if the planes collide.





    Here is a chance to fire the Schräge Musik if both planes are on the same altitude level.

    For shure the fighter can’t shoot with Schräge Musik if it has climb markers and the bomber has none.

    The fighter always needs to be lower then the bomber.



  4. #4

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    Advanced rules (different altitude level)

    If the fighter is one level below...




    ...the area were the Schräge Musik hits is different. I suppose it’s because of the firing angle.



    This is how it works on different altitude levels:



    ...and with backward Schräge Musik. (Unfortunately the template's size doesn't fit exactly here)



    If you replace the forward or backward standart armament, the remaining standart armament can still fire.

    Here is an example:


    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-10-2013 at 12:13. Reason: adding remaining armament

  5. #5

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    Sven, you have done an excellent pictorial guide to SM

    My simple SM house rules:
    - the SM can be fired only if the planes overlap at the same altitude,
    or if the target is overlapping at one altitude above the firer (halved firing power).
    - It cannot fire under collision conditions.
    - It has no firing angle.
    - There is just one type of SM.
    Last edited by Lino22; 10-06-2013 at 01:17.

  6. #6

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    Wow, those advanced rules do look nice and challenging to use. I think I haven't yet seen them in the rulebook. Where exactly are they located?

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  8. #8

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    Very well done example posting. I was watching your album fill with these pictures
    One point; I had not heard that they installed Schräge Musik firing backwards, nor that any installation would have removed the forward firing guns. Examples I have seen always were mounted in the back, firing at a high angle forward.
    Again well done.
    Karl

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Very well done example posting. I was watching your album fill with these pictures
    One point; I had not heard that they installed Schräge Musik firing backwards, nor that any installation would have removed the forward firing guns. Examples I have seen always were mounted in the back, firing at a high angle forward.
    Again well done.
    Karl
    +1

  10. #10

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    That's right Karl. Forward firing makes "historical" more sense, but the rulebook offers us this options.

    I'm not shure if i saw a picture somwhere with a backward firing system in a Japanese planes, operated by the rear gunner or radio operator (in difference to a normal rear gun), but I'm not shure about that.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-06-2013 at 12:56.

  11. #11

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    A picture paints a thousand words Sven and a hell of a lot clearer to understand. Well done.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Standart rules
    There are no altitude rules and no collision rules.

    When the planes overlap, the heavy fighter is able to shot at the bomber with two damage tokens.




    The direction of the Schräge Musik armament does not matter.

    I disagree with your statement that "The direction of the Schrage Musik armament does not matter". My understanding is that the Schrage Musik guns were fixed, not in a rotating turret, so the Me110 in the second picture should not have been able to fire at the B-25 because it was carrying forward firing Schrage Musik guns. The only nightfighters with turrets were the Boulton Paul Defiant and some of the Northrop Black Widows.

  13. #13

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    David, this is not his statement, he is just interpreting the rules the way they have been written. They for some reason work with two different types of SM - the SM aiming a bit backwards (no one around seems to have heard about that one yet) and the type that we know and that aims a bit forward. It is fixed in both cases - that's why the firer had to find the way underneath the beast's belly.
    Last edited by Lino22; 10-10-2013 at 06:01.

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  15. #15

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    David is right. The direction is important and the possibilities for shooting suggested above are in some cases NOT viable. The tactic was to creep up under a bomber, with the emphasis on not being seen, because of course you could then try to shoot down the next one. The guns were fixed. From the descriptions I have read, you had to position your aircraft under a wing (to hit the motor) or the body and shoot at the right moment. No mean task. So some possibilites in the rules as they could be interpretted are very fantasy. Even if you allow for the WOW "drift" factor (leeway in the direction a real plane might be facing as opposed to the model), as portrayed by the firing arc, you still have some rediculous shooting possiblities, if the descriptions of the rules above, reflect how they are written.

    From what I have read, for quite a time the British did not know the planes were being shot down by German planes, they thought the losses were from flak. There were no belly observation positions until the RAF finally cought on to what was going on and even then there were problems. I will have to look up the source and post it soon. The attack proceedure and later counter measures were interesting I remember. "Schräge Musik" was a "secret weapon" for a time.

    No, not "behind you" --- "below you!" (British pantomine joke Nr.1)

  16. #16

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    So it is possible to fire the forward armanent and also the forward firing Schräge Musik which replaced the rear armament?

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    I disagree with your statement that "The direction of the Schrage Musik armament does not matter". My understanding is that the Schrage Musik guns were fixed, not in a rotating turret, so the Me110 in the second picture should not have been able to fire at the B-25 because it was carrying forward firing Schrage Musik guns. The only nightfighters with turrets were the Boulton Paul Defiant and some of the Northrop Black Widows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blauer Baron View Post
    David is right. The direction is important and the possibilities for shooting suggested above are in some cases NOT viable. The tactic was to creep up under a bomber, with the emphasis on not being seen, because of course you could then try to shoot down the next one. The guns were fixed. From the descriptions...
    I understand you David & Kevin, but like Lino22 said, it's not about the historical armament, it's about the rules of the new WW II Rules & Accesoire Pack.

    These two pictures show the using of "Schräge Musik" with the Standart rules (no altitude - no collission).

    You can fire "Schräge Musik" if both planes overlap. With the standart rules is doesn't matter if the plane has a forward or backward firing "Schräge Musik", or wich part of your planecard overlaps.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-10-2013 at 11:35. Reason: bad spelling

  18. #18

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    Lino22 started a thread in General WW II Discussion about "Schräge Musik":

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ik-rules-weird

    I started one about night fighter scenarios:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...hter-scenarios

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    So it is possible to fire the forward armanent and also the forward firing Schräge Musik which replaced the rear armament?
    Yes.

    Ares Games clarified this in the rules.

    It doesn't matter, if you replace the forward or backward standart armament, the remaining standart armament can still fire.

    I add this to the rule threads.

  20. #20

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    Great and well-looking analysis!

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    [SIZE=3]You can replace the forward or backward standart armament of the Bf.110 with a Schräge Musik token.
    This is not 100% accurate. You always replace the rear machinegun of the 110, sometimes with a front-firing and sometimes with a rear-firing Schräge Musik. In other cases, you just add these weapons to the existing ones.
    Actually, some versions of the Bf.110 as the Bf.110 F4/U1 and the Bf.110 G4/U1 had a "Schräge Musik" installment of two 30 mm cannons firing obliquely upward, either forward (F4) or backward (G4). In both cases, the rear machinegun was removed.
    A similar field modification was done on some Kawasaki Ki-45 adding two forward firing 12,7 MGs, that were replaced by two 20 mm cannons in the Kawasaki Ki-45-KAI-Hei Toryu factory version.

  21. #21

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    Thank you Andrea.

    I just followed the text in the rules:

    The Schräge Musik may replace one of the airplanes's machine guns, as indicated by the scenario or by the airplane's special rules. For example, the BF. 110 rear machine gunscan be replaced...

    Those scenarios and airplane's special rules are still missing so it isn't clear that the installation of the Schräge Musik is restricted only to the rear gun.

    There are still questions like: wich planes used backward firing "Schräge Musik", etc...

    Maybe we get some with the Lancaster Special bomber pack?

  22. #22

    Default Alternative rules for "Schräge Musik"

    I suppose the generous allowance made in the rules for being allowed to shoot using Schräge Musik (if you are touching the enemy base anywhere), is because the opposing player will be turning and weaving trying to avoid you. OK. This is a game and that is a good solution.

    If Schräge Musik is to be used as was in action, I suggest the bombers should be on "automatic" i.e. usually flying straight with the rare moves to the left or right and height changes being dictated by chance cards or dice. (The night fighters using Schräge Musik had to creep up on their unsuspecting victims).
    The difficult bit is getting a rule to dictate which part of the Me110's base must be under the target's base in order to be able to shoot.

    I suggest it should be the middle point.
    However this makes it possible to attack from the side, which is an unlikely scenario, at night, with relative airspeeds.
    For forward firing (fixed) Schräge Musik you could "draw an imaginary line through the target's centre point and at 90 degrees to its sides and say that the attacking night fighter must have its centre point under the back half of the target's base and the forward marker on the night fighter's base must be in the forward half of the target's base.
    QED?

    Thinking it through (again), this could still allow an attack to be made/ or shot taken obliquely from the "side", albeit the rear side, but the parameters for that are so narrow, that if anyone pulls it off, they should be allowed to shoot anyway. So, happy huntng in the dark.....

    I think this well reflects the "real-life" manoevering required to get a shot in. The random changes of direction of the target (not too often) make for the rest.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I just followed the text in the rules:

    The Schräge Musik may replace one of the airplanes's machine guns, as indicated by the scenario or by the airplane's special rules. For example, the BF. 110 rear machine gunscan be replaced...

    Those scenarios and airplane's special rules are still missing so it isn't clear that the installation of the Schräge Musik is restricted only to the rear gun.
    Sorry for being unclear. I meant that it's always the rear machinegun to be ignored on the Bf.110, even when you add the front machinegun. So:
    - For the Bf.110 F4/U1 add the forward "Schräge Musik" and erase the rear machinegun that normal Bf.110 have.
    - For the Bf.110 G4/U1 add the rear "Schräge Musik" and erase the rear machinegun that normal Bf.110 have.
    - For the Kawasaki Ki-45 add a "Schräge Musik" of two forward firing 12,7 MGs, leaving all other weapons unchanged.
    - For the Kawasaki Ki-45-KAI-Hei Toryu factory version add a "Schräge Musik" of two forward firing 20 mm cannons, leaving all other weapons unchanged.

  24. #24

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    March 1944

    A Lancaster MK.III of the British Bomber Command on it's way to a target city in Germany.



    Undetected by the RAF crew a silent hunter aproaches low from behind...



    It's a Bf.110 G4 nightfighter of the German Luftwaffe.



    Through his special reflex sight mounted in the vitreus cockpit top, the German nightfighter pilots aim at the connection of the right wing and the fuselage to seal the fate of the bomber. A shure way to shot the 4-engined bomber down without being hit by a detonation of the bombload and with additional effect to give the enemy crew a higher chance to bail out.

    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-05-2015 at 04:20.
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  25. #25

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    Great shots and in B/W! Could almost be from a news reel.

  26. #26

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    Excellent example pics, Sven. I also like the camo repaint you did on the Bf-110 (saw it on the hobby thread too).
    Karl'
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  27. #27

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    Excellent pictures Sven, very easy to understand. I think they should be in the files section, they would be a great help to a lot of people.

  28. #28

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    You are bringing these rules to life, Sven. I am truly impressed. We will try them at Prague!
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  29. #29

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    Great Photography Sven, very evocative.

    Here's some pics of the Schräge Musik installation in a Me110 - guess it could be turned around if required:




    Different types carried their guns in different places and different ways - the Me 210 had moving barbettes for instance:


    If you follow this link you should find a short film featuring Peter Spoden, a nightfighter pilot, who explains how he used Schräge Musik and there is a daylight demo on a Lanc - sans guns of course - that may go a way toward explaining how shooting works in the game. Enjoy !
    Last edited by flash; 03-04-2015 at 23:38.

    "He is wise who watches"

  30. #30

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    Great video Dave.

    I read Peter Spoden's book: Feinde in der Nacht (Enemies at night)
    Voilà le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  31. #31

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    Excellent tutorial Dave/ Sven.
    I now understand fully what this is all about.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  32. #32

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    Fantastic tutorial! Thanks so much for posting this!

  33. #33

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    Great tutorial Sven. Thanks for the pics to put it all together.

    Thomas



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