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Thread: How to perform a loop?

  1. #1

    LOOP
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    Default How to perform a loop?

    Hi everybody

    I'm a relatively new player but I must say that this must be one of the funniest games I've ever tried.
    To my little problem. How to do a full loop?
    I've done some reaserch and found that many aircrafts where able to do this.
    I've started to wonder how I could tranform this acrobatic movement into WoW-cards.
    There must be someone here that have had the same idea.
    I'm greatful for all hits and tips.

  2. #2

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    Canonical loop:
    Straight - Reversal (gain climb counter) - Straight // Stall - Reversal (lose climb counter) -straight.

    That is an Immelman gaining the optional climb counter (Straight-Reversal-Straight), followed by a Split-S (Stall-Reversal-Straight)

    The simplified altitude rules differ slightly from the canonical ones.
    The simplified rules split the Immelman into a true Immelman : Straight - Reversal - Straight : with no altitude change; and a half-loop up, consisting of a straight - reversal - stall, where you increase altitude.

    So a loop is:

    Straight - Reversal (gain a peg) - Stall // Reversal (lose a peg) - straight - any maneuver.





    For completeness, here's what a normal Immelman looks like, one where altitude doesn't change:


  3. #3

    Suffern's Avatar
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    Very good but, lets face it, the game does not really give us any maneuvers save the Immelman and all we can do is approximate the effects.

    In a loop there is no roll at the top. Your illustration also is a implies a direction reversal, which is not the case -- a loop ends with the plane traveling in its original direction (give or take). It also should be executable in less cards than six. I have just resigned myself to the fact that it is not in the cards <g>. We do not have barrel rolls, per se, either. Or tail slides or even the staid hammerhead or...

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    The classic Immelman

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    The inside loop. Jimmy Doolittle was the first man to perform an outside loop but that was in 1927. Before that it was considered suicidal.

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    As I change tacks for a sec--
    A maneuver, in order to be a maneuver, needs to be performed in a single turn. It needs some element of uncertainty for the opponent. I propose that if one wishes to include loops (which, I think is highly desirous as it seems to be the most common maneuver mentioned by first-hand accounts) we need to add a new card to the maneuver decks. It looks just like an Immelman card only the arrow is red, denoting a drop in altitude. A loop then is a straight, an Immelman, the new red Immelman. We may require another straight after that but it gets the job done.
    I laid it out using the A deck. A plane traveling with 4 straights covers 20.5". This maneuver (straight, Immelman, Immelman, straight), the same plane covers 10.25". If one moves a straight, a stall, a straight, and a stall the distance is 13.025". Which, by the way, still simulates the effect of a loop but not a whole lot of surprise factor there.

    Well, it is a thought. Flame on!
    Last edited by Suffern; 08-19-2013 at 14:00.

  5. #5

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    Check out Flash's "Flash Moves" for a variety of (unofficial) maneuvers, INCLUDING Loops : http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1360

  6. #6

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    The 5-card trick : straight,reversal(up),stall,reversal(down),straight gives the right degree of flexibility and speed-over-ground for a loop up, or at least, has done in extensive playtesting. This is combined with the simple altitude rules - climb = go up one, dive = go down 2.

    If the last card of the previous turn was a straight, and you have an enemy on your tail, a move of reversal(up),stall,reversal(down) can reverse the situation and put you on his tail - though you have to do a compulsory straight as the first card of your next move. This emulates the use of a loop in WWI pretty well, and requires no extra cards or rules (apart from the simplified altitude rules, which simplify the game anyway).

    It may be argued that the simplified altitude rules (SAR) don't make a distinction between good and bad climbers. But tactically, there wasn't much. Operationally, when fleeing a fight after separating, yes. That's why there's an addendum - when executing a "continuous climb" of straight-climb-straight you put 2 climb counters on each card (thereby making it obvious that you're nursing angle of attack and throttle setting for best climb performance). By doing this, aircraft outside the dogfight can gain a tactical advantage, swooping in from height at an opportune moment, or climbing and chasing down a 2-seater that's getting away.

  7. #7

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    MoonSylver;
    Thanks for the heads up on Flash's work. The trick is to balance KISS with the effect to see which is a good match to be easiest to game. I can see why it (the loop) was not incorporated in the original game as it requires elements that are not addressed in its most basic form (i.e. altitude and speed).
    My argument with the altitude rules is there is nothing, really, to represent the storing and spending of energy that altitude represents. It just represents a whole 'nother can of worms and the game, as a game, would not benefit. This left the loop out of the loop, so to speak.

    Zoe;
    You are correct about the altitude. My impression from readings that, while there was no formalized training in this area, the better aces used the Boom and Zoom or Boom and Run (BnZ, BnR) tactics, took the shot and either scored or moved on.

    The game does not simulate in any way the cat and mouse of lurking at altitude to pounce on unsuspecting prey. It is a game. Lets not overthink this.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suffern View Post
    MoonSylver;
    Thanks for the heads up on Flash's work. The trick is to balance KISS with the effect to see which is a good match to be easiest to game. I can see why it (the loop) was not incorporated in the original game as it requires elements that are not addressed in its most basic form (i.e. altitude and speed).
    My argument with the altitude rules is there is nothing, really, to represent the storing and spending of energy that altitude represents. It just represents a whole 'nother can of worms and the game, as a game, would not benefit. This left the loop out of the loop, so to speak.

    Zoe;
    You are correct about the altitude. My impression from readings that, while there was no formalized training in this area, the better aces used the Boom and Zoom or Boom and Run (BnZ, BnR) tactics, took the shot and either scored or moved on.

    The game does not simulate in any way the cat and mouse of lurking at altitude to pounce on unsuspecting prey. It is a game. Lets not overthink this.
    My pleasure. If you haven't already, check out Dave's simplified altitude rules as well. They give a nice feeling of climbing & diving without counters or fiddly rules.

  9. #9

    LOOP
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    You are the greatest!!!
    I'm overwhelmed. Thank's so very much for all creative work. Now I have a lot to work with. I shall do some serious testing.
    and once more, thank's a lot

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    You are the greatest!!!
    I'm overwhelmed. Thank's so very much for all creative work. Now I have a lot to work with. I shall do some serious testing.
    and once more, thank's a lot
    If you do try out Dave's manuvers or altitude rules, do be sure to let him know how it goes when he returns from vacation. I'm sure he'd welcome the feedback.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suffern View Post
    We do not have barrel rolls, per se, either. Or tail slides or even the staid hammerhead or...

    I have often thought about barrel rolls, but my understanding of the "benefit" of a barrel roll was not only that it takes you to the side (and above your pursuer) and then back in line behind (and to the original altitude), is that the up portion of the maneuver allows you to bleed off speed so that your pursuer moves ahead of you. Since the one thing that WoW/WGF does not do is simulate the energy component of flight (I understand that different maneuver decks and climb rate do account for this but in my opinion not enough--e.g., you always fly at one speed, and have the same forward vector after six turns of diving as you do after six turns of climbing), I am not sure if barrel rolls, tail slides or hammerhead stalls work for the game. That said, I love the game, in part for its simplicity--I have games with my kids and my neighbors when we get together on occasion, and I am sure they would not sit still for a lengthy explanation of wing-overs or chandelles (two maneuvers I miss in the game, too).

    P.S. Just saw Flash's maneuvers which include just about everything...will need to try those. Now all that is necessary is a house rule that permits a pilot to "throttle back" to go a bit slower if necessary...

  12. #12

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    I've tested many different ways to do a loop now. Thanks to everybody for all your suggestions. In my opinion a loop must be more than a three-card move but the six is too much. So four or five.
    The hard part is when you have a fast airplane pursued by a slower one. It is a very big risk that you will end upp with a mid-air collision. But that just adds another dimension in the planingphase.
    The sequence I use right now is: straight, climb, Immelmann (behind), straight. Climbcounters (c) +1 (I) -1 = 0
    You can end the sequence with a dive insted of a straight and loose a level (or if you wish, two. The dive-card can be consithered as a form of powerdive as you gather speed from the top of the arc)
    But the five card sugested by Zoe work just fine.
    Ps. Flash's manouvers was a great inspiration.

  13. #13

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    Thank you Per-Gunnar, we'll agree to disagree !
    Suffern & Tusekine - here is the original loop thread where we developed the 3 card loop - based on watching an SE5a (and others aircraft) performing loops. There are pic in my album that explain things if you haven't found them already - Have fun with it

  14. #14

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    Yes, thank you. I was pointed at these threads previously. Interestingly enough, if you time the loop in the video (last post at: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Maneuver/page2) it takes the pilot between 5 and 6 seconds to complete the maneuver which is well within the 3-card criteria laid out earlier. The loop had been performed by aircraft by 1912 (perhaps earlier) and the performance level of pre-war planes was dismal compared to even the earliest purpose built scouts.

    We have a game tomorrow and I will introduce the loop in that session. I am still debating on how to term the maneuver so that it does not violate the rules overly much. But it will be a climb|reverse Immelmann|stall. I would like to let the third card be a stall, a straight, or 60 degree turn but how to parse that? I also believe that in the climb the pilot cannot shoot (his nose is pointed skyward) and there has to be a downside and that is it (TANSTAAFL) and after the Immelmann card, the plane is back at his starting point, pretty much.

    Thinking further...
    Maybe climb|reverse Immelmann|non-steep might be better and simpler.
    Last edited by Suffern; 08-31-2013 at 07:26. Reason: Addition

  15. #15

    LOOP
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    I fully agree that a pilot can't fire until he has cleared the top of the arc. In my loop that means the reversed Immelmann.
    And there is allways the speed-issue. Because all the aircrafts are dependent on cards and are not able to change speed, many options from "real life" disapear.
    But that's the way the game is constructed and makes it easy to play. And it is its simple rules that I like.
    So trying to make the game as real as it gets, well that might just ruin the fun.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suffern View Post
    ...We have a game tomorrow and I will introduce the loop in that session. I am still debating on how to term the maneuver so that it does not violate the rules overly much. But it will be a climb|reverse Immelmann|stall. I would like to let the third card be a stall, a straight, or 60 degree turn but how to parse that? I also believe that in the climb the pilot cannot shoot (his nose is pointed skyward) and there has to be a downside and that is it (TANSTAAFL) and after the Immelmann card, the plane is back at his starting point, pretty much. Thinking further...
    Maybe climb|reverse Immelmann|non-steep might be better and simpler.
    I started using this in non-altitude games as, like the Immelmann, it starts and finishes on the same level and because we wanted to use it !! We've found through play testing that the stall will drop you in on someone' tail very nicely, a straight will often make you overrun your opponent (depending on their speed/move), a turn is handy for breaking contact. If you limit it to a non steep third card you will likely lose the ability to turn the tables on your foe, which after all is the point of this manoeuvre, and we've found that players do like to option to do what they like ! Watching the footage changes in direction or setting up for another manoeuvre are not out of place. Agree with non firing on the climb, we don't allow firing at the climbing aircraft except by rear gunners and don't allow firing on the R/Immelman as that can give two bites of the cherry which some will consider unfair; though it's fair to say, in the heat of battle, we have often forgotten that !
    The beauty of this is it's a house rule so you can tinker with it as you like - I hope the guys like it and you have a good game tomorrow. Let us know how you get on.

  17. #17

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    Noob reference bump. Thanks for the clarification. I figured it out correctly.

  18. #18

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    We had a rather lengthy discussion on this a few years ago, with several options presented and play tested by several different groups.

    The final solution was: Climb - Immelmann off the back - Stall

    You can read about it here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Loop-Maneuver

    And you can see it in pictures here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=284

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikiMcBee View Post
    Noob reference bump. Thanks for the clarification. I figured it out correctly.
    This a great thread... and one I forgot existed. Thanks for the bump... and the links to the original discussion. I appreciated the back-and-forth as much as the final conclusion!

    Quote Originally Posted by usmc1855 View Post
    We had a rather lengthy discussion on this a few years ago, with several options presented and play tested by several different groups.

    The final solution was: Climb - Immelmann off the back - Stall

    You can read about it here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Loop-Maneuver

    And you can see it in pictures here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=284

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    I have to say, for a new player like me, seeing the two moves with the cards was an immense help towards my understanding of the maneuvers. Thanks

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by usmc1855 View Post
    We had a rather lengthy discussion on this a few years ago, with several options presented and play tested by several different groups.

    The final solution was: Climb - Immelmann off the back - Stall

    You can read about it here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Loop-Maneuver

    And you can see it in pictures here:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=284
    And that makes perfect sense! Why is this a house rule, this should be adopted in to official ruledom!

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suffern View Post
    Very good but, lets face it, the game does not really give us any maneuvers save the Immelman and all we can do is approximate the effects.

    In a loop there is no roll at the top. Your illustration also is a implies a direction reversal, which is not the case -- a loop ends with the plane traveling in its original direction (give or take). It also should be executable in less cards than six. I have just resigned myself to the fact that it is not in the cards <g>. We do not have barrel rolls, per se, either. Or tail slides or even the staid hammerhead or...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Aerobatic_immelman_turn01_1.jpg 
Views:	252 
Size:	171.7 KB 
ID:	104609
    The classic Immelman

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Aerobatic_inside_loop03_1.jpg 
Views:	253 
Size:	117.4 KB 
ID:	104610
    The inside loop. Jimmy Doolittle was the first man to perform an outside loop but that was in 1927. Before that it was considered suicidal.
    ive always thought of the maneuver cards as COMPONENTS to a maneuver that you build as you go along in (almost) real time that is only really evident after the fact. ie. have you ever done an immelmann followed by an immelman immediately after the last straight the next plot? congratulations youve just done a loop! have you ever done a side slip. straight or stall then a side slip in the other direction? congratulations youve just done a barrel roll! 2 turns in the same direction? congratulations youve just done a chandelle?


    it feels much more spontaneous to me than the hex based games that have the maneuvers all plotted out. much like flying a flight sim. have you eve been flying one and thought "i need to do a loop"? not me, i just think "he jinked that a way so ive got to juke this a way". (or, more likely just reacted).

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    ive always thought of the maneuver cards as COMPONENTS to a maneuver that you build as you go along in (almost) real time that is only really evident after the fact. ie. have you ever done an immelmann followed by an immelman immediately after the last straight the next plot? congratulations youve just done a loop! have you ever done a side slip. straight or stall then a side slip in the other direction? congratulations youve just done a barrel roll! 2 turns in the same direction? congratulations youve just done a chandelle?
    Well You are of course right. If you follow the rules and conbine your cards acordingly, you just moves. What you call your move is not important. But it is when you must "break" the rules it becomes interesting.
    Stall-Dive-Straight is an overdive and a "rulebreaking" combination. The stall and dive are both steep and can not be played after one another. It is the same with the split-S.
    Some "special"-combinations may have more or other effects that the just the combined cards. I have discussed a sort of half- or full role with my mates as a way of being harder to hit when being tailed.
    Perhaps a combination of sideslips (at leased two) with a penalty if you use more. (you must do a straight after the slideslips if you use 3 or 4 sideslips, 2 straights if you do 5 or 6 and so on) The benefits are that
    if you get hit you pick 2 damage-cards and keep the one for every hit you take. But you must tell the other players that you are doning a role, otherwise it is just a sideslip.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Well You are of course right. If you follow the rules and conbine your cards acordingly, you just moves. What you call your move is not important. But it is when you must "break" the rules it becomes interesting.
    Stall-Dive-Straight is an overdive and a "rulebreaking" combination. The stall and dive are both steep and can not be played after one another. It is the same with the split-S.
    Some "special"-combinations may have more or other effects that the just the combined cards. I have discussed a sort of half- or full role with my mates as a way of being harder to hit when being tailed.
    Perhaps a combination of sideslips (at leased two) with a penalty if you use more. (you must do a straight after the slideslips if you use 3 or 4 sideslips, 2 straights if you do 5 or 6 and so on) The benefits are that
    if you get hit you pick 2 damage-cards and keep the one for every hit you take. But you must tell the other players that you are doning a role, otherwise it is just a sideslip.
    isnt it awesome that the mechanics are versatile to add such complexity if wished?

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    Well You are of course right. If you follow the rules and conbine your cards acordingly, you just moves. What you call your move is not important. But it is when you must "break" the rules it becomes interesting.
    Stall-Dive-Straight is an overdive and a "rulebreaking" combination. The stall and dive are both steep and can not be played after one another. It is the same with the split-S.
    Some "special"-combinations may have more or other effects that the just the combined cards. I have discussed a sort of half- or full role with my mates as a way of being harder to hit when being tailed.
    Perhaps a combination of sideslips (at leased two) with a penalty if you use more. (you must do a straight after the slideslips if you use 3 or 4 sideslips, 2 straights if you do 5 or 6 and so on) The benefits are that
    if you get hit you pick 2 damage-cards and keep the one for every hit you take. But you must tell the other players that you are doning a role, otherwise it is just a sideslip.
    isnt it awesome that the mechanics are versatile to add such complexity if wished?

  26. #26

    LOOP
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    Right again!!

    And I find theese dicussions so inpireing. Peaople on the forum are so creative and have such a huge knowage about, well, everything. (pardon my bad spelling )
    And as you said. It is a simple, but oh so clever game.
    I just wished that I found it long before I did....



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