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Thread: Fixing Jams

  1. #1

    Default Fixing Jams

    I decided on a house rule that jammed guns can only be fixed when flying 'straight & level'.
    This means that pilots can only lose their jammed token after playing a long straight manoeuvre card (and it must not be part of an Immelmann / split S).
    This means it may take more than a game turn to fix your guns and, I think, adds a bit of realism, as well as a bit of panic !!
    My wing man loves it and it has been taken up by the local wargames WoW guru too. Give it a go - you may be surprised !

    Regards flash

    "He is wise who watches"

  2. #2

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    I'd adopted that rule too for jams (and reloading), but I've since altered it so that you can also unjam guns during shallow turns. Less realistic, but more playable IMO.

  3. #3

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    Sounds good to me. I'll put it to the lads, and try it out next time we play.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Flying straight while trying to unjam your guns makes sense to me. It may make it tough when it's your guns, but great when it is your opponent.
    Jim

  5. #5

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    I thought that was the point, but you can delay it by getting out of the way, then tending the guns.
    Last edited by HardRock; 07-19-2010 at 17:09. Reason: OOPS!

  6. #6

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    My lot decided to stay with the official rules on this one, after a protracted debate which entailed the eating of a lot of cheese and downing even more Port. It was , therefore a well worthwhile discussion.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  7. #7

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    Our group voted Nay on this a long time ago on this one as it tends to streach out the game. It generally causes you to fly quite a ways away from the combat, and by the time you plot your way back it may have moved farther away and you end up must moving your plane around the table trying to get back in range. Although this is factually accrurate, as gamers we want ACTION! So we continue to bend reality a little and liet our pilots bang on thier guns in the middle of furballs.

    Actually I have found that it is dangerous anyway since in the game you need to continue to plot aggressivly so that when your guns unjam you can open up, you tend to get into situations where you get shot at and have a shot lined up you can't make!!

  8. #8

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    You don't have to fly all the straights at once - you just have to do 3 in total to clear the jam. I find it attracts people to attack so there's no problem with missing any action - you just have to clear the jam before they catch up !!

    "He is wise who watches"

  9. #9

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    I agree that it makes sense, but I also agree that the fun of the game is the action and using the straights to unjam guns would slow down the game, resulting in more time spent away from the fight or getting back into position. I may try it once just to see how difficult it is to try and stay somewhat in position within the fight yet fly straight at least three times to unjam the guns.

    Scott

  10. #10

    Gord's Avatar



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    Gordon Parker
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    Default Cool idea

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I decided on a house rule that jammed guns can only be fixed when flying 'straight & level'.
    This means that pilots can only lose their jammed token after playing a long straight manoeuvre card (and it must not be part of an Immelmann / split S).
    This means it may take more than a game turn to fix your guns and, I think, adds a bit of realism, as well as a bit of panic !!
    My wing man loves it and it has been taken up by the local wargames WoW guru too. Give it a go - you may be surprised !

    Regards flash
    I like it!
    We will try this soon (tonight probably) and I will let you know. Sounds like a great idea.

    To go along with this we have been toying with adding a save roll to special damage. A save roll is common in a lot of miniatures games.

    Using a D10, as an example, a roll of 5 or better would be a save and avoid the damage. If you fail the save then you need a 7 or better on you first attempt to clear the jam, 5 or better on your second, 3 or better on your third and subsequent attempts. Just spit ballin' but this could address some peeves regarding special damage.
    One could go even further, and using the Minimum or Base Damage rules that we use here at Slot car palace make the player roll for a hit first - perhaps a roll of 3 or more for close range and 5 or more for long range. This would address the concern over automatic damage (even though it exists in the card decks anyway we just don't know how much).
    This would add a bit of dice rolling (bit still a lot less than Squad Leader LOL) and may slow the game down a bit and I have bad visions of minis falling like nine pins ( I have seen dice go shooting across the room in Heroclix). But this might add a nice wrinkle for us tinkerers.

    At any rate, we will try the straight and level idea tonight.
    Gord

  11. #11

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    I'm torn on this one as well.

    I've cleared jams while maneuvering many times, and somehow that didn't feel entirely "right".

    But on the other hand, I understand the reluctance to extend games by slowing things down.

    But on the other hand, it might really make things interesting: clear the jam or take evasive manevuers?

    In the pbem games I've played in, you aren't allowed to clear jams when doing an immelman. I like that-- it feels right, and doesn't seem to really adversely affect gameplay very much.

    I think the best way to implement this might be to say "No clearing jams on steep maneuvers" -- that way, you could still clear jams on mild turns, which would help keep planes closer to the action.

  12. #12

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    Thats how IRM does it Bill - works for him (but I think it's a soft option - sorry Iain ! )
    I haven't found it slows the game down but it does make you think - remember, you just have to clear the jam before they catch up !!
    The only way to know for sure is to do-oo it ! And if you can't hack it it's not compulsory

    "He is wise who watches"

  13. #13

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    I like the more realistic "unjam on straights only" version better too (and I still use it during solo games), but since most of my opponents are casual gamers at best we tend to use the "diet version" if at all.

  14. #14

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    You're a good man Iain..!

    "He is wise who watches"

  15. #15

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    Just thought I'd shad some light on this subject. I have been re-reading Bishop's Winged Warfare and he talks about his guns jamming (page 72). Go goes on to say that he followed the Hun in a dive while "tinkering with the gun all the time". I'll try and find more accounts of pilots unjamming their guns "while in the fight". I personally think it would be unrealistic to fly straight and level to clear your guns... pilots would have left the fight before doing that.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    Just thought I'd shad some light on this subject. I have been re-reading Bishop's Winged Warfare and he talks about his guns jamming (page 72). Go goes on to say that he followed the Hun in a dive while "tinkering with the gun all the time". I'll try and find more accounts of pilots unjamming their guns "while in the fight". I personally think it would be unrealistic to fly straight and level to clear your guns... pilots would have left the fight before doing that.
    Right to the nub of the matter as usual Col. Hammering on my guns in a dive.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    Just thought I'd shad some light on this subject. I have been re-reading Bishop's Winged Warfare and he talks about his guns jamming (page 72). Go goes on to say that he followed the Hun in a dive while "tinkering with the gun all the time". I'll try and find more accounts of pilots unjamming their guns "while in the fight". I personally think it would be unrealistic to fly straight and level to clear your guns... pilots would have left the fight before doing that.
    Useful information, Col.. We play by the original gun jam rule and unless you (or someone else) turns up some historic account that contradicts the way the rule is written, we'll likely not change the way we play.

    Scott

  18. #18

    Gord's Avatar



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    Gordon Parker
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    Default Maneuver restrictions

    Funnily enough I was reading the same passage myself the other day ...
    Hi Keith,
    Perhaps the restriction should be : No Steep (diamond) or inverted maneuvers. Which would make sense when you consider that your hands would be a lot busier during more complicated maneuvers.
    Also if using Desaix's variant and using the "B" deck during a jam (simulating 1 working gun only) then there would be no un-jamming during shooting.

    Gord

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    Just thought I'd shad some light on this subject. I have been re-reading Bishop's Winged Warfare and he talks about his guns jamming (page 72). Go goes on to say that he followed the Hun in a dive while "tinkering with the gun all the time". I'll try and find more accounts of pilots unjamming their guns "while in the fight". I personally think it would be unrealistic to fly straight and level to clear your guns... pilots would have left the fight before doing that.

  19. #19

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    There are several more remarks through out his book where he talks about maneuvering and unjamming guns at the same time. There was one where describes him self dodging for all he's worth while fussing with his gun (he was in a Nieuport at the time).

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    There are several more remarks through out his book where he talks about maneuvering and unjamming guns at the same time. There was one where describes him self dodging for all he's worth while fussing with his gun (he was in a Nieuport at the time).
    Just to muddy the water, and show that some pilot had a different agenda.
    "When you're in combat and your guns jam, the best thing to do is get the hell out of there if you want to keep your health!" Second Lt.Reginald Hoidge,56 Squadron,R.F.C. We all know that he was no coward from his record. It just makes one wonder how many other pilots held the same view but kept it quiet so as not to appear to be in a blue funk.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  21. #21

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    I think it was pretty common to try and clear the jam for a few seconds and high tail it home if you were not successful. I've not read anywhere where the pilot flew straight and level during a fight to clear his jams.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Hajj View Post
    I think it was pretty common to try and clear the jam for a few seconds and high tail it home if you were not successful. I've not read anywhere where the pilot flew straight and level during a fight to clear his jams.
    No Col. I can't say that I have ever come across that either. I think that the rules work pretty well as they are in this case.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  23. #23

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    We're still playing this and it works very well for us - the term straight and level is perhaps misleading but was used to indicate the use of the 'long straight' cards - a dive is also a 'long straight' card and has been incorporated as one which can be used. We don't allow unjamming on any other card though some do allow it on the long curves which is not unreasonable. The cards don't have to be consecutive, just 3 in total. I don't think anyone would allow it during the 'steep' moves or when firing another working weapon as the pilot would be busy flying the plane &/or aiming.
    I hope you give it a go and find it as enjoyable as we have.

  24. #24

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    One of the jam options we use, is for "A" guns, on the Green, only one of your two guns is jammed. This means that if you've a juicy target like, say "Banana Steve" in your sights, you can keep shooting on the "B" deck, or choose to disengage and clear your jam. Now say you get one card into clearing your jam, and "the target" did something incredible, you couldn't possibly pass up that shot, you could choose to fire on the "B" cards, but you have to start all over again clearing the jam on the next phase.

    If you pull the Red card, Well, then you are screwed, and must kick your mechanic for loading faulty ammo, and pick a neutral zone and make for safety as you clear the jam from both guns. (We did discuss the option of taking 3 cards per gun, but everyone felt that was too strict, and left it at the three cards to unjam)
    Last edited by Raffvantye; 10-07-2010 at 22:51. Reason: typo

  25. #25

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    We pretty much do the same Jim but we don't start over if interrupted when clearing a jam.

  26. #26

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    We discussed doing that Dave, but then it cuts the risk down. Do you chance getting a good shot at the cost of clearing the gun?

  27. #27

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    See what you mean but as we play 'The cards don't have to be consecutive, just 3 in total' the risk is the same but consequence is not so great as we don't start over. Either way it's fun isn't it ?!

    "He is wise who watches"

  28. #28

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    Yes, that it is!



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