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Thread: Another dive bombing question

  1. #1

    Default Another dive bombing question

    I found this in he latest rule set from the Rules & Accessories pack:

    DIVE BOMBING
    Before revealing any maneuver, if the last maneuver executed by the dive bomber was a sharp dive and another sharp dive is planned after that, your bomber can decide to drop one or more groups of bombs, or even the entire load.

    VERTICAL DIVE BOMBING
    Before revealing any maneuver, if the last maneuver executed by the dive bomber was a vertical dive, the bomber may decide to drop one or more groups of bombs, or even the entire load.

    Does this mean, that the sharp dive bombing must consist of at least two sharp dives, and thus you cannot execute at altitude 2, but higher?
    The vertical bombing doesn't seem to have this limitation, and i can't find that part "if the last maneuver executed by the dive bomber was a sharp dive" in Fire from the skies rule book either.
    Last edited by Lino22; 03-22-2013 at 04:35.

  2. #2

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    They really could have wrote down the dive bomb stuff more exactly.

    The way you wrote it, is the way it's in my (German) Dawn of War Deluxe Set and my (German) Fire from the Sky expansion.

    a) you are not allowed to throw the bombs the normal way with dive bombers

    b) you need to fly two dive bomb maneuvers to throw the bombs - so you have to be on level 3 (3 altitude pegs) when staring the dive bombing run


    I don't know why they wrote it so complicated.

    Maybe they want you to know, that you don't have to wait until your last dive bomb maneuver to throw the bombs.

    Imagine you start the bombing run at level 7. Your first dive bomb maneuver brings you to level 6. You annonce the bomb drop and fly to level 5 - now the bomb card is placed (or not placed/Stuka). You make another 2 or 3 dive bomb maneuvers that bring you to level 3 or 2 and then you'r flying home. So the moment of bomb throwing does not have to be the last dive bomb maneuver.

    You simply announce the bomb drop after the first dive bomb maneuver, fly then a second one and place the bomb card in front of the base (or the plane's base is the bomb hit zone for Stuka bombing)



    Diagram above produced by Tomatchef
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-22-2013 at 05:51.

  3. #3

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    Sven, now i understand that in case of the sharp dive, you are limited by minimum of 2 sharp dive maneuvers.
    However they don't state the same thing in the Vertical bombing paragraph. Do you thing that they just omitted an obvious thing?
    I don't like when rules leave too much room for my wild imagination.

  4. #4

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    I see the difference between the two sentences, Lino.

    But I can't find this difference in my rules. It's exactly the same procedure for both kinds of dive bombers - except the Stuka speed marker, that the Stuka don't move and the hit zone (and I don't see a reason why a Stuka needs only one vertikal dive for bombing).

    Hopfully we get more statements here to the passage in the new rulebook.


    You can fly the dive bomb maneuver as a single one too, but I shure you can't throw the bombs after a single one, when the next maneuver is a climb or fast non-steep-maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Back to vertical dives, the plane can vertically dive, so you ca do it when you want. Both to attack and to evade, if you think. Then as Sven notes it "tooks a lot of time to reach the altitude level for dive bombing", so it is an evasion that you dearly pay for in altitude terms... Up to you if you want to use it or not.
    From this thread:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...0-Stuka-diving



    So you need two dive bomb maneuvers for dive bombing.



    That's why I insist on altitude rules for missions with dive bombers. If you play it only two dimensional, the bombers are much too vulnerable for enemy fighters while bombing.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-22-2013 at 07:18.

  5. #5

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    And the vertical bombing goes the same? I guess yes ... there is a hint in the quote

  6. #6

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    The Stuka can perform the vertical dive bomb maneuver or the sharp dive bomb maneuver.

    So there shouldn't be a difference in the number of needed maneuvers for bombing.



    On the other hand, they changed the climb rate for a Sopwith Camel from 2 to 3 with the new rules. I can't give you a guarantee.

    The thing I can guarantee you - is, that we speak about the bombing conditions before I fly my Stuka to England in July at Prague.

  7. #7

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    that is gonna be indeed a great time.

    Funny thing is i asked those few questions i haven't get answered by the long promised rule book at BGG and their WoG Facebook. No answers. I also wrote a message to Andrea.
    I guess they must be very busy now as they present the Sails of Glory to public.

  8. #8

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    To be honest, the questions are a little bit uncomfortable, because you light parts of the rules up, that no one can answer you fast & with 100% guarantee. (a FAQ would be a good solution )

    It can be that one game group play it in this way and the other plays in another way, or with house rules.

    So the two briefing minutes before a match are most important.

  9. #9

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    I asked Andrea and he answered on their FB page:

    "1. How many sharp/vertical dive maneuvers can be included in one dive bombing sequence? 1-2? Any number?
    2. It looks like there is a minimum of 2 sharp dive maneuvers per one sharp dive bombing. Is there also a minimum of 2 vertical maneuvers (= any maneuver + Stuka token) per one vertical bombing?"


    Sorry, I did not get the final version of the rules yet - I am still waiting for the printed copies of the R&A pack. I will use as a reference the final draft I have and my intentions, then.
    1 - As many as you want, as by sharp/vertical dive rules: you can follow such a dive with another dive of the same kind, or with a maneuvre breaking the sequence. So you can go on diving until... you run out of altitude.
    2 - As stated at the end of the rule, vertical bombings work as sharp ones. So the perfect formulation of the rule would be: "Before revealing any maneuver, if the last maneuver executed by the Stuka is a vertical dive and another vertical dive is planned after that, the Stuka can decide to drop one or more groups of bombs, or even the entire load. Bombs have effect after maneuvres are executed."

  10. #10

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    Number 1 is for pure maneuvering.

    Number 2 makes clear that you don't need to throw the bombs at the end of the dive-bombing-run. It's possible to throw them in between.

  11. #11

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    So can there be a single dive sharp/vertical bombing attack? #1 looks like it can, #2 looks like it cannot

  12. #12

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    Andrea aswers again , good man!

    "Sorry again for the delay - I am also still waiting for my copies of the product for a 100% accurate check...

    Anyway yes, you can do any number of dives in a row. To bomb, you need at least two of them in a row: you decide to bomb after one of them (that brings you to altitude 3 or 2 if altitude rules are in use) and then bombing happens after executing the other one (when you are at altitude 2 or 1 if altitude rules are in use). Sharp and vertical dives work the same way (sorry if the wording of the rules is not perfect).

    Thanks for your patience,

    Andrea"

  13. #13

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    That's an important clarification.

    You need two dive bomb maneuvers in a row to drop the bombs with a dive bomer. (...and you can throw the bombs after the first or second, or third etc.... maneuver as long there are two in a row.)

    Thank you Lino.

    Why can't they write it that simple in the rules?

  14. #14

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    Lost in translation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    That's an important clarification.

    You need two dive bomb maneuvers in a row to drop the bombs with a dive bomer. (...and you can throw the bombs after the first or second, or third etc.... maneuver as long there are two in a row.)

    Thank you Lino.

    Why can't they write it that simple in the rules?

  15. #15

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    No - the German translation is as weird, as the English one.

  16. #16

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    Sharp dive is a pretty difficult maneuver to carry out and get full hit. Vertical dive is a piece of a cake.

  17. #17

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    Does anybody have any experience in dive bombing according to RAP?
    What are your thoughts?
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  18. #18

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    I never played dive bomber myself yet, so I'll stick to your experiences for now. Btw, I watched Polish movie Battle of Westerplatte last night. There was interseting Stuka bombing scene.

  19. #19

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    I commanded (a) Stuka(s) at Origins 2014 and Prague Summer Con.

    We bombed with them according to the rules.

    What do you want to know exactly, Andrzej?

    The essence is that you need to perform always two dives in a row and you can throw the bomb after the first one, if you're at altitude 2 with the first dive maneuver (or at altitude 1 - but this should only be done after the second dive, otherwise you'll hit the ground ).

    So a Stuka or a Val needs a minimum altitude of 3 for a bombing run.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-24-2014 at 22:04.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I commanded (a) Stuka(s) at Origins 2014 and Prague Summer Con.

    We bombed with them according to the rules.

    What do you want to know exactly, Andrzej?

    The essence is that you need to perform always two dives in a row and you can throw the bomb after the first one, if you're at altitude 2 with the first dive maneuver (or at altitude 1 - but this should only be done after the second dive, otherwise you'll hit the ground ).

    So a Stuka or a Val needs a minimum altitude of 3 for a bombing run.
    Thanks for your readiness, Kamerad.
    Not clear for me is the Vertical dive, which seems to be MUCH easier than the sharp dive. As far as I know, there have to be TWO compulsory sharp dives before releasing the bomb [so you must start from alt 4 => 1 sharp dive => 3, 2 sharp dive => 2 => bomb] and just ONE OR TWO vertical dive to do that. Right?
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  21. #21

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    I think I see what you meant. 2 dives, but bombing may take place after the first one or the second one. Right?
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  22. #22

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    As I see it it goes like that:
    1. If you want to dive bomb you need to start planning with "dive bomb" card (for sharp dive) or "dive bomb" with "vertical marker" for vertical dive
    2. During movement phase you move your plane if you've planned sharp dive, or leave it on the current position if you've planned vertical dive
    3. Next turn you have to plan next "dive bomb card" if you want go on with sharp dive or "dive bomb card" with "vertical" marker if you want to continue with vertical dive
    4. Once cards are revealed, but before any movement is executed you have the option to release bombs
    5. If you choose to release them execute movement normaly (moving a plane in case of sharp dive or leaving it at place in case of vertical dive) and place "bomb" card in front of the plane in case you've executed sharp dive bombing, or exactly underneath plane base if you've executed vertical dive. That's where bomb hits the ground
    6. If you do not choose to release bombs in pt 4, you come back to pt 3 and execute the sequence once more. You can repeat it until a/ you release bomb, b/ you choose to go out of dive, c/ you hit the ground (possibly ramming the target, that's "kamikaze" option)
    7. You can always break the dive planning and executing any fast maneover card
    Last edited by Thunderbolt; 10-25-2014 at 03:39.

  23. #23

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    Rafal, the only plane that can choose vertical dive bombing (or sharp dive bombing) is the Ju 87 Stuka.

    All others have to use sharp dive boming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    I think I see what you meant. 2 dives, but bombing may take place after the first one or the second one. Right?
    Right, aminimum of two dives, but the bomb release altitude for dive bombings is limited to 2 or 1.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Rafal, the only plane that can choose vertical dive bombing (or sharp dive bombing) is the Ju 87 Stuka.

    All others have to use sharp dive boming.
    Very true, Sven. The others just do not have "vertical counter", hence they are limited to one option. I tried to keep my explanation as generic as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Right, aminimum of two dives, but the bomb release altitude for dive bombings is limited to 2 or 1.
    A decision to release the bombs can be made only at altitude 2 or 3, that's what is written in the Rules (Rulebook, p 40, "Dive Bombing and Altitude"). Since a decision is anounced before movement execution, and actual release of bombs is after movement execution, the bombs are released at altitude 1 or 2 due to altitude loss while diving.

  25. #25

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    In the complete WoG games you have to announce the bomb drop before the maneuvercard is placed.

    So you announce it of course at level 3 or 2

    &

    and you release/bomb at level 2 or 1.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 10-25-2014 at 02:06.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  26. #26

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    Agreed and settled, Sven

    Which brings me to another question:
    Say you fly Stuka bomber. Can you switch between vertical/sharp dive while execution of a dive (this can be useful for bombing moving targets)? Imagine the situation. You go for vertical dive against moving target, but you realize that it will be out of explosion range next turn. Then you plan dive card, but with no vertical counter changing your dive into sharp one. Following round you continue with sharp dive and place your bombs according to sharp dive rules. Hmm... Normaly you can go out of the dive with fast manouver card, but in this case you do not go out of the dive at all, just change the type of dive.

    Couldn't find anything that prohibits that in the Rules.

  27. #27

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    Have a look at page 25, comrade.

    With a Ju 87 you can't change from a vertical dive to a sharp dive.

    The change a sharp dive to a vertical dive should be possible.
    Voilą le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  28. #28

    Default

    Indeed Sven! It's clearly stated that you cannot plan dive card after you've started vertical dive. Option to go from sharp into vertical is possible.

    Thanks for the hint!



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