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Thread: Blohm & Voss BV222 Wiking - Stats, Card etc

  1. #1

    Default Blohm & Voss BV222 Wiking - Stats, Card etc

    If all goes well I should have two miniatures of the Blohm & Voss BV222 in 1/200. Wanting to use them in the game I'm going to need cards and stats for them.
    First I would want to get the stats right. So this means movement and armament.

    The speeds of this beast are the following...

    Maximum speed: 330 km/h (205 mph; 178 kn) (at 46,000 kg (101,413 lb)) at sea level - 390 km/h (242 mph) at 5,000 m (16,404 ft)

    Cruising speed: 300 km/h (186 mph; 162 kn) (continuous economical) at sea level - 344 km/h (214 mph) at 5,550 m (18,209 ft)

    If I would want the miniature to move on my table, how large should the movement of the center be? I read somewhere on the forum that 6,5cm stands for about 325km/h. Is the actually correct?

    Armament is the following:

    3 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons (one each in fwd turret and two wing turrets).
    5 × 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns (One in nose and four in beam positions).

    What damage would the 20mm cannons do to attackers? Both long and short range? Is that one C-token? I would give the three turrets a 360° firing arc or is this going to be to powerful.
    The 13mm machine guns do an A-damage token if I'm correct?

    I'm really looking forward on having this beast on the table accompanied by an escort of two Bf110.

  2. #2

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    I am happy to take part of this project. The stats are really needed
    Last edited by Nightbomber; 02-23-2013 at 15:23.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    I am happy to take part of this project. The state are really needed
    And I'm very happy too that you did! Thanks to you I'll be a happy owner of the Bv222 .

  4. #4

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    From Wiki: '(Bv222) V2 was later scuttled by the British who filled her with BV 222 spare parts from the base at Ilsvika to weigh her down. V2 was towed to a position between Fagervika and Monk's island where it is thought she now rests perfectly preserved on the seabed, owing to low oxygen levels in the water. There are plans to raise and restore this aircraft.'

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldrick62 View Post
    From Wiki: '(Bv222) V2 was later scuttled by the British who filled her with BV 222 spare parts from the base at Ilsvika to weigh her down. V2 was towed to a position between Fagervika and Monk's island where it is thought she now rests perfectly preserved on the seabed, owing to low oxygen levels in the water. There are plans to raise and restore this aircraft.'
    Well its filled with spare parts so the restoration should be a piece of cake then...

    I was thinking about cards size too. Does anybody have an idea what the scale is of miniature to card. Anyhow the card should be rather great as well. The real version had a wingspan of 46m and was 37m long. That should give a model of 23cm wingspan and 18,5cm long and this gives a rather large card. Or the should the card be made more to resemble the airplane itself rather than a simple rectangle. Otherwise the aft corners of the card are excellent spots for attackers to shoot at it without being shot at...

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  6. #6

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    Made a quick draft of an crew management card. Its a quick draft so the number of the crew need to be changed to. Also after a bit of looking at the official bomber cards I will try it with a card that measures 20cm x 14,5cm.

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    Edit: Worked a bit more on the card and this is how it looks like now...

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    Last edited by Thomatchef; 02-26-2013 at 04:51.

  7. #7

    Default Firing Arcs

    Apparently not a lot of interest in this one...

    As I had no answer to my questions I guessed and made the card with the firing arcs...

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    The numbers aren't very logical. Don't know where my head was when I put them on the card. If I find some extra time I'll change it maybe but for now it gets the job done...
    Movement will be impossible with a normal maneuver deck as it will be to fast. It will be more in the line of sliding the base 6,5cm forward per turn.

    I also asked MAX HEADROOM for a colored picture of the plane as my photoshop skills are limited to copy and paste..

    Edit: and an other option for the turrets on the wings together with a colored aircraft.

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    2nd Edit:

    The improved crew management card...

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    Last edited by Thomatchef; 02-26-2013 at 10:57. Reason: added a second option for the firing arcs and with colored aircraft

  8. #8

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    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...0/0f/XB-35.jpg The XB-35. Plenty of 1/200 models available for it. Great for a "Luft '46" mission once we get the late war fighters. I am trying to figure out where it's guns would be placed (because the prototypes were never armed but what they would be armed with was released but not where the placements would be). But since WWI has large Zeppelins I guess we will have to settle for large aircraft in the style of a Aero Fighters boss.

  9. #9

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    And a little playtest with the second option of firing arcs. All special damage was ignored and no altitude was used. Following rule for overlap was used: when an attacking airplanes center overlaps the target it can no longer fire at the target. The defending weapons of the target can fire as long as their dot isn't overlapped by the attacker and the attacker is within range.

    First maneuver that gets the attackers within range.
    The right P-40 can fire at close range and is fired upon from firing arc 4.
    The left P-40 fires from long range and is fired upon from firing arc 6.
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    Second maneuver: Both P-40's fire from close range.
    The right P-40 receives damage from firing arc 2 and 4.
    The left P-40 receives damage from firing arc 6 and 8. It should also received an extra C damage from firing arc 5 but I seem to have overlooked that...
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    Third maneuver: P-40's are unable to fire at the target.
    The right P-40 receives damage from firing arc 2. And again forgot firing arc 5 which also could have fired at this aircraft. Gunner was asleep probably.
    The left P-40 is being fired upon from fring arc 8. The dot from firing arc is overlapped by the right P-40 but not by the left one thats why this arc can still fire at it.
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    Fourth maneuver: Prepping the Immelmann
    Right P-40 receives damage from firing arc 5 and 7. The damage resistance is reached and aircraft is destroyed.
    Left P-40 receives damage from firing arc 2 and 6.
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    Fifth maneuver: Immelmann and firing long range at the target.
    P-40 is just out of range of firing arc 5 but is just within range of arc 7.
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    Sixth and last maneuver: Getting closer for short range shot. This last burst is enough to destroy the target.
    The P-40 receives the full blow of the three cannons (firing arc 2, 5 and 6).
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    The final verdict
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    More testing is needed of course but after this one and only play-test this seems to be something that can work. I had doubts about the large card being an easy target but the few heavy guns on the target seem to be compensating that. Can become fun with an heavy escort and some extra attackers...

  10. #10

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    So two of the game's toughest fighters took it on and everyone lost. This will certainly create some interesting scenarios in the future.

  11. #11

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    Thanks for testing the giant, Thomas. BTW: your model is on the way to Belgium

  12. #12

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    Do not you think some of the gunners should move from one place to another, like 3-4, 7-8?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    So two of the game's toughest fighters took it on and everyone lost. This will certainly create some interesting scenarios in the future.
    Well, they probably would have lost as I forgot firing arc 5 with a C-damage token twice.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    So two of the game's toughest fighters took it on and everyone lost. This will certainly create some interesting scenarios in the future.
    Not to mention a-historic -- the BV222 did not last long in the presence of even heavy fighters. V6 was shot down by a solitary Bristol Beaufighter, and C-10 by a single Mosquito; two P-40s should be more-than-enough to deal with a BV222.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Do not you think some of the gunners should move from one place to another, like 3-4, 7-8?
    The plane had a crew off 11 to 14 people. I'm at 10 now. So at most that leaves another 4 people to do navigation, radio, engine monitoring, ...
    I think that in this big beast every gun had a designated gunner.

    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Not to mention a-historic -- the BV222 did not last long in the presence of even heavy fighters. V6 was shot down by a solitary Bristol Beaufighter, and C-10 by a single Mosquito; two P-40s should be more-than-enough to deal with a BV222.
    My test turned out otherwise but I attacked at a fairly strong side. Had I attacked up front the P40's would have dealt out quit a lot of damage without taking damage themselves. If you start using altitude it will become even more easier as the 3 turrets with the 20mm cannons are limited to same altitude or higher. So attacking from below the wings will be very succesful.
    Last edited by Thomatchef; 02-26-2013 at 15:47.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Not to mention a-historic -- the BV222 did not last long in the presence of even heavy fighters. V6 was shot down by a solitary Bristol Beaufighter, and C-10 by a single Mosquito; two P-40s should be more-than-enough to deal with a BV222.
    Heavy fighters would have been better to deal with the Bv 222 then most single engine fighters. Not only did they have the added bonus of an extra engine but also tended to carry 20mm cannons. Two P-40s for one Bv-222 seems just about right. Now if we throw two Ki-61 KaiDs at it then we would have a more interesting fight as that model was designed to take out large, heavy aircraft.

  17. #17

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    Went to the copy shop today and printed out the cards. Also printed out a version of the fire arcs on a clear film so I could put it on the perspex base. Put a bomber card in the pic for comparison .

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    Depending on the "mini" I must drill a hole for the peg and its ready to play...

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    I realized that I forgot the blue dots for the "flying out of the map" and tailing rules but don't think that I'm going to miss them. Otherwise a blue marker will solve that.

    The PDF's are with this post to print the cards and the firing arcs on clear plastic.
    Attached Files

  18. #18

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Well done, Wingman
    Are you getting one for yourself as well ?

  20. #20

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    Yes I am It's on the way to my place. Although I'm not fond of the late war models in WGS, this one is a cool looking giant.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Yes I am It's on the way to my place. Although I'm not fond of the late war models in WGS, this one is a cool looking giant.
    Well in the beginning (1941) the BV222 was unarmed and was escorted by two Bf110. And the Bf110 is what we are getting next month. Those late war models become very interesting this way no ?

    PS: don't forget to send a PM to me

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomatchef View Post
    My test turned out otherwise but I attacked at a fairly strong side. Had I attacked up front the P40's would have dealt out quit a lot of damage without taking damage themselves. If you start using altitude it will become even more easier as the 3 turrets with the 20mm cannons are limited to same altitude or higher. So attacking from below the wings will be very succesful.
    I was going to comment on what the [CENSORED] those pilots were thinking, flying into the broadside like that. My approach would have been from astern; get into his blind spot (the BV222 has no tail turret), and he dies painfully.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I was going to comment on what the [CENSORED] those pilots were thinking, flying into the broadside like that. My approach would have been from astern; get into his blind spot (the BV222 has no tail turret), and he dies painfully.
    Don't get too close though, that 20mm cannon on top could still be a problem. And once a maneuver deck is chosen the Bv 222 will have a chance to maneuver you into that broadside. Having said that, it's fancy moves that get fighters killed, a common late war German tactic (when the fighter escort was busy of course) was to "park" heavily armored fighters behind the bombers and dig into them. This tactic was usually successful because A. the bomber, despite having 10-13 guns, usually only had two able to fire that direction and B. the fighter had all of it's fire power facing towards the bomber. In theory two P-40s should be able to take a few hits in return to down something large like that if they do not get fancy.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    Don't get too close though, that 20mm cannon on top could still be a problem.
    Well, if the "blind spot" rules are in effect, the fighters should get to short range, so they can hide behind the tail.

  25. #25

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    Here is a picture of my Bv222, which I bought fairly cheaply on eBay. It is 1:200 scale, it was ready painted and came from Poland.


    Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #26

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    That's the exact one I have as well except mine had a little battle damage during the mailing process and needs a little TLC with glue.

  27. #27

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    The first one arrived today and tonight after some work it is ready to be used in the game. It is supported by one bomber-peg and that seems to be enough. The peg also slides in my base but because the base is to thin so I cannot push it al the way down and that something I don't like. I will probably take one small peg and glue that one in place. Now waiting on the one Andrzej ordered for me and then I start the repaint of one. This one has had some paint damage on its fuselage so if the other one is better this one is going to be repainted.

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    And some pictures for comparison... It is huge!!!!

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    Last edited by Thomatchef; 03-01-2013 at 18:40.

  28. #28

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    Excellent picture, Thomas
    Was is the parcel I had sent you?

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Excellent picture, Thomas
    Was is the parcel I had sent you?
    No, I'm expecting that one next week. I'll keep you posted.

  30. #30

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    Thanks to MAX HEADROOM who has provided me with a winter version of the plane I can now make a more accurate card that fits the "mini". He also gave me a layered psd file so I can try to make every camouflage version I want.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #32

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    Any idea of a maneuver deck yet? Maybe the deck for the He 111? 272 mph (He 111) compared to 242 mph (Bv 222) may be a little fast but only play slow speed might compensate a little. I have not had a chance to pick up a He 111 yet so I have no idea what its maneuverability is like on the table though.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    Any idea of a maneuver deck yet? Maybe the deck for the He 111? 272 mph (He 111) compared to 242 mph (Bv 222) may be a little fast but only play slow speed might compensate a little. I have not had a chance to pick up a He 111 yet so I have no idea what its maneuverability is like on the table though.
    The maneuver decks as we use them in the game now aren't useable for this giant bird. If you place a maneuver card in front of the base and then move it, the center moves more than 14,5 cm plus the distance of the maneuver card. That is way to much and way to fast for this giant. A fighter wouldn't be able to keep up with it and that isn't accurate at al.

    This is the reason why I asked in the beginning of this topic if a 6,5cm card represents 325km/u. If this is correct then my proposal would be to slide the base 6,5cm forward every turn. Another option is to use the system I developped for movement of my ship. It consists of movement cards you put next to the base and then slide forward or sidewards according to the markers on the card.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    The card is perfect!
    Thanks, the crew management card will follow tommorow.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomatchef View Post
    The maneuver decks as we use them in the game now aren't useable for this giant bird. If you place a maneuver card in front of the base and then move it, the center moves more than 14,5 cm plus the distance of the maneuver card. That is way to much and way to fast for this giant. A fighter wouldn't be able to keep up with it and that isn't accurate at al.

    This is the reason why I asked in the beginning of this topic if a 6,5cm card represents 325km/u. If this is correct then my proposal would be to slide the base 6,5cm forward every turn. Another option is to use the system I developped for movement of my ship. It consists of movement cards you put next to the base and then slide forward or sidewards according to the markers on the card.
    If using a clear base then one possibility I have always thought of would be to have the silhouette of the He 111 base printed roughly in the middle of the base and use the silhouette as a means of movement.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Ninja View Post
    If using a clear base then one possibility I have always thought of would be to have the silhouette of the He 111 base printed roughly in the middle of the base and use the silhouette as a means of movement.
    Thought on that to. But then you would have to lift the base just to put a card under it and after movement the card will probably also be under it. Tommorow after work I was planning on digging in on the movement of this bird. I will defenitly will let you know what I found.

  37. #37

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    The only other idea I had for large bases would be to cut the plexiglass and keep the firing arcs on the cut off bits so you have the base for movement and you just line the arcs up for firing purposes. Pros, smaller base to carry around (as the arcs would probably be two sections that fit in any container easily), cons, lot's of effort for just one base.

  38. #38

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    Excellent project Thomas, well done mate

  39. #39

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    I promised you to look into movement and extra cards but since time is limited I have focused on repainting one of my big mini's. Now thats finished and I'm forced to stay home today because of the snow, I'll try to get the movement and the cards sorted out.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  40. #40

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    Great project, Thomas.

    (...even if I think that the c damage for single barrel 2 cm "gunner" cannon is too much. A compromise would be "B" damage on full ruler distance & "C" damage only on half ruler distance.)

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Great project, Thomas.

    (...even if I think that the c damage for single barrel 2 cm "gunner" cannon is too much.)
    Thank you!

    I've had doubts about that C damage token to. There are versions of this plane with double 0.51 machine guns which should be a B-token. These are the reasons why I went for the C-token: B and C have the same average damage, but C is more hit or miss thus more representing a slower firing cannon. Beeing this huge and having the wing on top I assumed that this airplane flew very stable. Flying stable gives a stable platform for the gunners to fire from.

  42. #42

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    I have been looking at the movement. First these are the numberrs I used. Speeds are from various sources over the internet.

    Bf109: max speed of 570km/h
    He111 H3 : max speed of 440km/h
    Bv222: max speed of 390km/h

    For the bf109 and he111 I measured movement of the back of the base after a fast straight move. For the bf109 that was 12,8cm and for the he111 10,2cm.

    Given the max speed and travel of the base I calculated a value of speed per cm.

    For the bf109: 570/12,8= 44,53km/h/cm
    For the he111: 440/10,2= 43,13km/h/cm

    So I settled for 1cm representing 44km/h

    Now reversing the math for the BV222 gives me 390/44=8,86 cm but rounded that down to 8cm

    Below are pictures of the three aircraft flying side by side for comparison. The Bv222 was flying 8cm per turn.

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    After one move.
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    After two moves.
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    After 7 moves.
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    I think this is still a bit fast to have an enjoyable gameplay but I'm not sure how much I must slow it down. What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by Thomatchef; 03-12-2013 at 06:25.

  43. #43

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    That looks terrific Thomas & you seem to have got it about right - If you'd started them level by the front of the base rather than the back you may have got a better impression of the different speeds but this shows the overhauling capabilities off nicely.
    That is the flat out speed you've used though so you could dial it back to cruising speed or somewhere between the two maybe?

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomatchef View Post
    I've had doubts about that C damage token to. There are versions of this plane with double 0.51 machine guns which should be a B-token. These are the reasons why I went for the C-token: B and C have the same average damage, but C is more hit or miss thus more representing a slower firing cannon.
    If memory serves: The C-chits are supposed to represent a single 20mm cannon.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    If memory serves: The C-chits are supposed to represent a single 20mm cannon.
    Yes they are. But they represent a pilot operated one... Not shure if you can compare that with.a gunners 20mm cannon. Is accuracy the same?

    I'm still thinking and working on this project but my time is very limited these days. Next on my to do list are the movement cards and the management cards with a winter camouflage.

  46. #46

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    Remotely-operated barbette guns, such as those under the nose of Blenheims and Beauforts, and the wings of Baltimores, were disparagingly referred to as 'bird scarers' by crews, and often removed to reduce drag and weight, so anecdotally I'd say they were pretty ineffective.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldrick62 View Post
    Remotely-operated barbette guns, such as those under the nose of Blenheims and Beauforts, and the wings of Baltimores, were disparagingly referred to as 'bird scarers' by crews, and often removed to reduce drag and weight, so anecdotally I'd say they were pretty ineffective.
    A bit late but lack of time halted this project for a while. The cannons on the BV222 are (from what I've found) operated directly and not remotely. So my question remains about accuracy. The BV222 had a top wing design making normally a very stable aircraft. Add the hugeness of it and in smooth weather and I suspect you get a very stable platform to shoot from....

  48. #48

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    Thomas I was unaware of this Thread.
    See what you've done.
    Now I'll need one of these.
    How did you made the base? Was it printed by you?
    Bought it in a store?

  49. #49

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    This may be a stupid question but is there any way to shorten the length of the base down to the length as that of a Heinkel 111? Could you keep the same width but remove a little from the front and shorten the back to just after the rear beam guns?

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    Thomas I was unaware of this Thread.
    See what you've done.
    Now I'll need one of these.
    How did you made the base? Was it printed by you?
    Bought it in a store?
    The planes can still be found on the internet. Prices variate a bit, but you should find them fairly cheap. The base is a homemade one. A piece of perspex cut out to the same dimensions of the card. Then the fire arcs where printed on a clear plastic film. Put the film onto the perspex and you have the result shown above. The printing was done in a copy shop but costed nearly nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Naharaht View Post
    This may be a stupid question but is there any way to shorten the length of the base down to the length as that of a Heinkel 111? Could you keep the same width but remove a little from the front and shorten the back to just after the rear beam guns?
    You could always take siccors and shorten the card when printed out . Only joking, it would be possible but you would have to move some of the guns to do so. Exactly why would you want that?

    The base is made large to represent the aircrafts vulnerability. Then with damage points you can compensate or fine-tune it to suit you scenario needs.
    Last edited by Thomatchef; 01-23-2014 at 22:57.

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