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Thread: Point system for Wings of Glory

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    Where does the "U" deck come from? I thought Sopwith Triplanes weren't available yet... (I'm currently using an extra C deck with the plane card form my Famous Aces set, along with a scratchbuilt Triplane miniature.) Is the U deck available somewhere?
    You can make a U deck Bill by using an O Deck minus 2 hard left turns or M deck minus the hard left turn & 1 wide right sideslip - you should end up with this which is how Andrea described it to Zoe:

    Deck U (20)
    3 straight
    2 hard right turn (90°)
    3 right turn
    3 left turn
    2 stall - steep
    1 Immelmann !
    2 right sideslip
    2 left sideslip
    1 broad right sideslip - steep
    1 broad left sideslip - steep

    I've used it & it's pretty good. Now all you need to find is a spare M or O deck !

  2. #102

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    It's helpful still. I am going to use it to adapt "Bomb London!" For use with BD, WYB, and FoG. Originally it also needed FA. For example, a Spad (which I don't have) is about the same as a B-firing DH4. Yes, I know, not exactly. But it was helpful like this for all of these planes. Not for campaigns or WoG, I suggest.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcpravel View Post
    I love this thread. I think the points system will be very helpful in creating a more competitive “tournament” style game option ala “X-Wing Miniatures” for Wings of Glory that just doesn’t exist today. I think that if we can figure out the official formula, we might be able to develop more “Ace Abilities” that can allow for more customization in squads and allow players to use the planes they have without feeling imbalanced when they fight players that have more powerful aircraft.

    I ran through the formula that Andrea provided and came up with the following. I’d like your feedback to see if I’m on track:

    • “A” Deck Cost: 48 points
    • “B” Deck Cost: 24 points
    • Hit Points: 2*# of Hit Points (i.e; 16 hit points = 32 point cost)
    • Ace Skills:
    o Acrobatic Pilot: 8
    o Daredevil: 6
    o Height control: 6
    o Good at Escaping: 7
    o Lucky Pilot: 7
    o Chivalrous Aptitude: -5
    o Strong Constitution: 5
    o Super Ace: 8
    o Bullet Checker: 8
    o Incendiary Bullets: 6
    o Technical Eye: 5
    o Itchy Trigger Finger: 6
    o Perfect Aim: 8
    o Sniper: 8
    o Rookie (No Ace Skills): -10
    I created a spreadsheet in Excel to subtract these points from the total cost of each aircraft to find the cost for each Maneuver Deck. In some cases, the math didn’t come out exactly, so there might be other things going on here. Also, some of the maneuver decks seemed to be priced a little higher than I expected, so maybe there are some calculations for climb rate as well? Here’s how things came out:

    Maneuver Deck:
    • A Deck: 5 (Spad XIII)
    • B Deck: 4 (Albatross D.Va)
    • C Deck: 8 (Sopwith Camel)
    • D Deck: 12 (Fokker Dr.1)
    • F Deck: 11 (Hanriot HD.1)
    • H Deck: 3 (Ufag C.I, DH4)
    • I Deck: 5 (Nieuport 17/23)
    • J Deck: 4 (Albatross D.III, Pfalz D.III)
    • K Deck: 0 (RE8, Rumpler C.IV, Breguet XIV,L.F.G. Roland C.II)
    • L Deck: 20 (Fokker D.VII)
    • M Deck: 17 (Sopwith Snipe)
    • N Deck: 12 (Se5a)
    • O Deck: 17 (Siemens-Schuckert D.III)
    • P Deck: 4 (Airco DH2, Halberstadt D.III)
    • Q Deck: 6 (Aviatik D.I)
    • R Deck: 1 (Nieuport 16)
    • T Deck: 0 (Fokker E.III, Morane Saulnier Type N)
    • U Deck: 12 (Sopwith Triplane)

    I think the next step in testing the balance of these maneuver decks would be to take planes and swap maneuver decks to see if there is an increase in the performance by making this change. Theoreitcally, if I were to give an Albatross D.III (80 points) an “L” Deck like the Fokker D.VII, it should be worth 96 points (80 +20 for the “L” deck, minus 4 for the “J” Deck) and basically be on part with a Sopwith Snipe (97 points). Obviously this would be ahistorical and I’d never do this in a real game, but it would be an interesting exercise to see how balanced the decks really are.

    At a glance, a few of these decks seem to be priced a bit oddly. For example, are the “R” and “T” decks so bad that you should be given points for taking them? If I gave the Fokker D.VII a “T” Deck, it would be worth 78 points (100, minus 20 for the “L” deck, minus 2 for the “T” deck). That puts it in the ballpark of the Nieuport 17 and slightly less effective than the Albatross D.III or D.Va. Does that sound right? What if you gave the Fokker D.VII the “K” deck used by the RE8. In most cases it looks like that would be a “0” point option, so the Fokker would cost 80 points. Would an 80 point “K” deck Fokker D.VII be more effective than a 78 point “T” deck Fokker D.VII? My gut says that they “T” deck Fokker would consistently be better.

    Finally, I’ve toyed around with 300 point limit lists using this point system. The question I have is this: If your objective was to win a tournament and using any squad possible within the rules was allowed, would you rather take the list with 3 Fokker D.VIIs , or with 7 Morane Saulnier Type Ns? I realize that’s an absurd matchup and if I were doing a tournament, I’d probably limit to “early war”, “mid war” and “late war” scenarios, but at the same time, I want people to be able to use what they own. If such a matchup were allowed, which of the above two lists would you expect to win? I think my money would be on the player who brought 7 aircraft.

    I love the concept and would like to work through it a bit more to see if it’s something I could adopt for a tournament environment. I’d love to hear you guy’s thoughts!
    Has anybody figured out the value of the E and S decks?

  4. #104

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    Well, I guess E deck would be 4 points - being slower than H, and J (3 and 4 points), but having sideslips (faster and similar I deck is 5 points).
    For S deck I can't help...

    By the way, I'm interested in "values" of X decks: should they go beneath zero? As K and T decks are already 0.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    Well, I guess E deck would be 4 points - being slower than H, and J (3 and 4 points), but having sideslips (faster and similar I deck is 5 points).
    For S deck I can't help...

    By the way, I'm interested in "values" of X decks: should they go beneath zero? As K and T decks are already 0.
    Thanks for your reply!!!

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    By the way, I'm interested in "values" of X decks: should they go beneath zero? As K and T decks are already 0.
    Probably not a good idea -- one game-design lesson which was hammered into me long ago is "the lowest total point value of a unit should be 1". to avoid the infamous "Hall Of Infinite Orcs" problem (this is where a unit has a TPV of 0, or a negative number, thus allowing a player to take infinite numbers of the unit).

  7. #107

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    I'm aware of that, too. But, in this game Orcs shouldn't scare us (we do have Clipper's Elves ). Take Serbian two seater Bleriot XI for example (unofficial unofficial, but weakest airplane with machine gun I can remember). It should have i.e. 18 for health, +24 for B machine gun, -10 for being Rookie, -2 (theoretically, for XB deck). It's total of 30. There is still plenty of space for minus-pointed decks.

    But, if we agree that each characteristic should have value of at least 1, whole scale should be moved for a point or more. Weakest deck should be rated some value (just in case you sometimes make even weaker one), and then you should count next values, based on the weakest one.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Пилот View Post
    But, if we agree that each characteristic should have value of at least 1, whole scale should be moved for a point or more. Weakest deck should be rated some value (just in case you sometimes make even weaker one), and then you should count next values, based on the weakest one.
    Exactly -- move the entire scale up the same distance, and the balances are maintained. (I suppose one could figure percentages, but....)

  9. #109

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    I've counted some statistics (complete decs, Boom included):

    A deck (35 cards)

    average damage by card 1,6 points

    Chance to get
    Special Damage (total) 28,57%
    Pilot 5,71%
    Smoke 2,86%
    Engine 2,86%
    Fire 2,86% (with posibility to last 2 turns)
    Rudder 11,43%
    Boom 2,86%

    Machine gun 11,43%

    -----------------------------------------------
    B deck (45 cards)

    average damage by card 1,044 points

    Chance to get
    Special Damage (total) 26,67%
    Pilot 4,44%
    Smoke 4,44%
    Engine 2,22%
    Fire 4,44% (with posibility to last 1 or 2 turns)
    Rudder 8,88%
    Boom 2,22%

    Machine gun 13,33%
    -----------------------------------------------
    Based on this, comparative point values (if A deck is 48 pts. worth) would be:

    damage points 48 : 31,32
    special damage 48 : 44,8
    MG jamming 48 : 41,6

    Having this in mind, B deck should worth more, 36 points or so (and not 24, which is suggested now)
    Last edited by Пилот; 06-04-2013 at 07:00.

  10. #110

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    Nice job. I was surprised about the low value of the B deck. I have been using this pt system for accouple of weeks now and it does work. Will be playing it more.

  11. #111

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    Keep up the great work everyone!! I cannot wait to see what further testing reveals.

    Michael

  12. #112

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    I like this point system more the more I used it. Some of the guyz wanted to play 2 seaters with A/A guns. With a point system, go ahead use up your alloted points with a 2 seater. Some quickly changed their minds.

  13. #113

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    Any more playtesting recently?
    Thanks so much!

    Andrea

  14. #114

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    Does anyone have the points value for a SPAD VII? (I'm using B B 15 for the basic stats.)

  15. #115

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    58 points. And 82 for the rare modifications with a second MG. I update the general list too.

  16. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    58 points. And 82 for the rare modifications with a second MG. I update the general list too.
    Thanks! (I had been using 60 as a guess.)

    Any thoughts on the value of balloons? If you were building a scenario where one side has to down a balloon, and the attacker has 400 points, the defender should have something less than that-- as the balloon adds to the amount of damage the defense can take. I'm thinking maybe 50 points-- that the defender gets 350 points.....

  17. #117

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    In my opinion, a point system is useful when two parties are one against the other, in a symmetrical situation, with the aim to eliminate each other.
    For specific asymmetric scenarios, where the goal is different (as destroying a balloon or defend it), there are several variables - time limits, goals, maybe ground defences - interacting among them so that victory points are a better way to balance sides than just the points to make parties. Even the starting distance compared to the speed odf the attacking plane is a delicate matter in a balloon busting scenario - while it is not in a dogfight one.
    A balloon is more a target than anything else - it should not have a point value imho.
    Better to start from the scenarios in Burning Drachens or Balloon Busters, and maybe adapt them.

  18. #118

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    Andrea, how many points would you put the Felixstowe at?

  19. #119

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    Andy [freebird-52] and I just play tested an upcoming Mission for the Over the Trenches Campaign. This is supposed to be a Solo Campaign, but it was a chance to play with someone, so I went that way. After the complete slaughter of one side in the first run, we discussed the tactical reasons why it was unbalanced. On redesigning the scenario, and looking at what I thought would fix it, I remembered this thread, and looked it up.

    Well, no wonder one side was creamed! They had half the points. I applied some of the balancing discussion points, but shelved others, trying to use the points system to equal out the sides. I allowed one side to have a few more points as the aggressor, and the next game we played was much more of a challenge for both sides, and difficult for the defender. Both games agreed with the points score.

    Not considering really bad damage card draws, I like the way the points system helps noobs, like me, come close to a balanced scenario. If you use it.

    BTW: the scenario included bombers, and once the OtT Mission is posted, I will link this post to the Mission Brief. With a bunch of Campaign players, it will get a thorough playing out, and we can all see if the numbers bear out with good and novice players, an AI/Bot opponent, and card draw anomalies.

    [EDIT - 1 Aug 2013] Link to Mission: Over the Trenches - The Final Months - Mission 6 Briefing: "Bring Them All Home".

    Mike
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-01-2013 at 11:29. Reason: Link to Mission Brief

  20. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Andy [freebird-52] and I just play tested an upcoming Mission for the Over the Trenches Campaign. This is supposed to be a Solo Campaign, but it was a chance to play with someone, so I went that way. After the complete slaughter of one side in the first run, we discussed the tactical reasons why it was unbalanced. On redesigning the scenario, and looking at what I thought would fix it, I remembered this thread, and looked it up.

    Well, no wonder one side was creamed! They had half the points. I applied some of the balancing discussion points, but shelved others, trying to use the points system to equal out the sides. I allowed one side to have a few more points as the aggressor, and the next game we played was much more of a challenge for both sides, and difficult for the defender. Both games agreed with the points score.

    Not considering really bad damage card draws, I like the way the points system helps noobs, like me, come close to a balanced scenario. If you use it.

    BTW: the scenario included bombers, and once the OtT Mission is posted, I will link this post to the Mission Brief. With a bunch of Campaign players, it will get a thorough playing out, and we can all see if the numbers bear out with good and novice players, an AI/Bot opponent, and card draw anomalies.

    Mike
    Bear in mind Mike that AI controlled machines are never quite as handy as player controlled buses, so need a bit of a points buffer to get a good match.
    Rob.

  21. #121

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    Thanks Andrea, great work for tournaments and a simple method, which is always good. As for normal play I like the game as it is with the odd house rule thrown in. There's nothing better than having the odds against you and coming out on top.

  22. #122

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    This is a pretty good system. And, for beginners who don't necessarily know how to make a balanced and fair game because of a lack of historical knowledge, these points can help.

    I think it would be pretty interesting as well to give point values to various actual historical pilots based on the presumption that they had certain ace abilities and such. So, a player could choose not just a plane but also a pilot for that plane. For example, the SPAD XIII, according to a doc I downloaded in the files section, could be pilot by one of the following: Francesco Barraca, Rene Fonck, Edward Rickenbacker. Depending on who a player chose to fly his plane, the points value would change. *shrug*

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by drsid View Post
    This is a pretty good system. And, for beginners who don't necessarily know how to make a balanced and fair game because of a lack of historical knowledge, these points can help.

    I think it would be pretty interesting as well to give point values to various actual historical pilots based on the presumption that they had certain ace abilities and such. So, a player could choose not just a plane but also a pilot for that plane. For example, the SPAD XIII, according to a doc I downloaded in the files section, could be pilot by one of the following: Francesco Barraca, Rene Fonck, Edward Rickenbacker. Depending on who a player chose to fly his plane, the points value would change. *shrug*
    it also keeps the power players in check!

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Probably not a good idea -- one game-design lesson which was hammered into me long ago is "the lowest total point value of a unit should be 1". to avoid the infamous "Hall Of Infinite Orcs" problem (this is where a unit has a TPV of 0, or a negative number, thus allowing a player to take infinite numbers of the unit).
    Oh, right "Spells and Swords" minis game for AD&D
    Karl

  25. #125

  26. #126

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    Andrea,

    Link to Mission 6 Brief added above. Once the results are in, I will re-post the tally on what happened. These will be Solo games, but the balance should still be proofed.

    Mike

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by drsid View Post
    I think it would be pretty interesting as well to give point values to various actual historical pilots based on the presumption that they had certain ace abilities and such. So, a player could choose not just a plane but also a pilot for that plane. For example, the SPAD XIII, according to a doc I downloaded in the files section, could be pilot by one of the following: Francesco Barraca, Rene Fonck, Edward Rickenbacker. Depending on who a player chose to fly his plane, the points value would change. *shrug*
    Great idea! I added a tab for Aces to my Wings of War Points spreadsheet on Google docs. I've put a link to the spreadsheet below (make sure you switch to the "Aces" worksheet tab):

    Wings of War Points Spreadsheet.

    So far I've added the cost in points for all of the Aces from the Wings of War Ace Promo pack from BoardGameGeek.com. This lists the stats for the following Aces:

    • Frank Luke
    • Jean Navarre
    • Lanoe Hawker
    • Manfred Von Richtofen
    • Max Immelmann
    • Silvio Scaroni
    • Willy Coppens


    Is anyone else aware of official stats for other Aces? If there isn't anything official, perhaps there is a thread where others have developed an unofficial list of WoG Ace abilities for historical aces? I'd be happy to add those pilots to the list as well.

  28. #128

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    That is awesome! Thanks. I certainly hope that gets expanded.

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Oh, right "Spells and Swords" minis game for AD&D
    Karl
    I was thinking _Necromancer_, as referenced in SJG's _Murphy's Rules_.

  30. #130

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    So in the end, a few more points should be given to B machineguns as by Пилот is online now 's suggestions and tests. This would also match my tests. Anybody disagreeing with this?

  31. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcpravel View Post
    Great idea! I added a tab for Aces to my Wings of War Points spreadsheet on Google docs. I've put a link to the spreadsheet below (make sure you switch to the "Aces" worksheet tab):

    Wings of War Points Spreadsheet.

    So far I've added the cost in points for all of the Aces from the Wings of War Ace Promo pack from BoardGameGeek.com. This lists the stats for the following Aces:

    • Frank Luke
    • Jean Navarre
    • Lanoe Hawker
    • Manfred Von Richtofen
    • Max Immelmann
    • Silvio Scaroni
    • Willy Coppens


    Is anyone else aware of official stats for other Aces? If there isn't anything official, perhaps there is a thread where others have developed an unofficial list of WoG Ace abilities for historical aces? I'd be happy to add those pilots to the list as well.
    Excellent work!

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    So in the end, a few more points should be given to B machineguns as by Пилот is online now 's suggestions and tests. This would also match my tests. Anybody disagreeing with this?
    I agree.

  33. #133

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    Hmmm...
    I was gonna match up 4 Fokker Dr.1s and the Black Flight (Collishaw's A tripe and four B tripes). By the points originally posted, this should be a close match. If you change the points, what would the numbers be (12 points per B tripe?)

    Mike
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 08-13-2013 at 23:47. Reason: darn auto-correct

  34. #134

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    This is the 1st time I have seen this thread. My initiall reaction was no this this is not needed as we only play with aircraft in a historical time year. However after several readings of all the posts in this thread, I have now been converted. I think this is an excellent idea for Tournaments, and for in-house games where you always get that one player who has to have the most superior plane he/she can get. All I can say is well done Andrea and every one else who has contributed to this thread. I now await the PDF file

  35. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    This is the 1st time I have seen this thread. My initiall reaction was no this this is not needed as we only play with aircraft in a historical time year. However after several readings of all the posts in this thread, I have now been converted. I think this is an excellent idea for Tournaments, and for in-house games where you always get that one player who has to have the most superior plane he/she can get. All I can say is well done Andrea and every one else who has contributed to this thread. I now await the PDF file
    I have one in my club. thank goodness I was gone that weekend. He flew a Bristol F2B with a A+B gun in front and a A gun in the rear. I had to explain to the club that plane cost est 165 pts or around 2 Albatros DVa's. Then the light got turned on. I would rather play balanced games by year also but, there is always somebody out there that needs to fly the best.

  36. #136

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    Note to self:- must remember to upgrade Nigel's "Biff".

    Seriously, in terms of the posat by Andrea, I concur that a few more points for the B guns is a good idea.

    Rob.

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Hmmm...
    I was gonna match up 4 Fokker Dr.1s and the Black Flight (Collishaw's A tripe and Tour B tripes). By the points originally posted, this should be a close match. If you change the points, what would the numbers (12 points per B tripe?)
    How many is not decided yet, but I will try to do it soon. If you play that scenario in the meantime, please let us know the results!

  38. #138

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    I've updated my Wings of War Points Spreadsheet with a new tab named "Planes (Increased B Cost)". On this tab, each "B" firing machine gun is costed at 36 points instead of 24 (based on Пилот's analysis) and the total cost for all "B" firing aircraft has gone up.

    I have not play tested anything at this points level yet, but I did make up a few sample 300 point lists for comparison using the updated points cost (300 points seems to be a good number for a 1 vs. 1 match):
    • 3 Fokker D.VIIs. (no points remaining) vs. 5 Morane Saulnier Type N "Bullets" (with 30 points remaining)
    • 3 B Firing SE5as (with 60 points remaining) vs. 3 Albatross D.VAs (with 54 points remaining)
    • 3 RAF RE8s (with 6 points remaining) vs. 3 Albatross D.IIIs and 1 Fokker E.III (with 6 points remaining)


    On paper, these seem a lot more evenly matched to me than when the B machine guns were costed at 24 points. I did consider pricing the B machine guns at 32 points, but this meant that you could get 2 B firing SE5as PLUS 2 B firing Sopwith Triplanes (with points to spare!) vs. 3 Albatross D.Vas and that just seemed ridiculous.

    Updated spreadsheet here: Wings of War Points Spreadsheet.

    While I was playing around with lists, I did come across a question. The "Rookie" Ace Ability is described as having "No Ace Skills" and costed at -10 points. When would you use this skill? Do you really subtract -10 points for having a pilot with no Ace Skills? Wouldn't that in effect just make each aircraft worth 10 points less? If you add a single Ace Ability, wouldn't that in effect make it cost 10 points more (i.e.; no skills -10 points, 1st skill costs 6 points plus you loose the -10, so the effect is 16 points). I found myself constantly selecting as many "Rookie" pilots as possible to get as many aircraft in my list that I could, and then only ever using Ace Abilities to use up my remaining points. This doesn't quite feel right to me, so I was hoping I could get an explanation of how to use the "Rookie" skill.

  39. #139

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    Andrea,

    I play with up to 10 different players. I have noticed when given a choice between The Fokker Dr.I (86), Pfalz D.III (84), Albatros D.Va (82) and Albatros D.III (80) they always choose the Dr.I or V.a. When asked why they said "the Pfalz and D.III are to slow and unmaneuverable to be competitive". Have you had anyone else experienced these results? If so maybe there needs to be more of a separation between these aircraft.
    Sincerly, John

  40. #140

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    Bryan,
    The point system should not be used to compare fighters of 1915/16 to late 1918 fighters. Perhaps Nieuport 17 B guns x 5 at 265pts Vs Albatros D.III with A guns x 3 (with Bullet Checker, Sniper, and Lucky pilot) at 263pts would be a better comparision.

  41. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I have noticed when given a choice between The Fokker Dr.I (86), Pfalz D.III (84), Albatros D.Va (82) and Albatros D.III (80) they always choose the Dr.I or V.a. When asked why they said "the Pfalz and D.III are to slow and unmaneuverable to be competitive".
    I'm starting to think that 300 is the wrong points value for a standard list. Maybe 250 is a better number. With 300 point lists, you can have 3 80 point Albatross D.IIIs or 3 97 point Sopwith Snipes. At 250 the choices get more interesting. You can have 3 Albatross D.Vas or 3 B firing SE5as, but you can only fit two of most of the other A firing Aircraft such as the SPAD XIII or Fokker DR.I. This makes the decisions a lot more interesting. Sure, I might normally choose the 86 point DR.1 over the 82 point Albatross D.Va, but would I rather have 3 Albatrosses with few Ace Abilities, or 2 Fokker DR.Is, with more Ace Abilities? THAT is a more difficult (and therefore interesting) choice. Also, at 250 points you could never have more than 4 of any Aircraft in the game (assuming 36 point "B" machine guns). This would mean at the extreme you'd have 4 "Bullets" vs. 2 Fokker D.VIIs, both with a good mix of Ace Abilities. On paper that seems like a pretty fun matchup to me!

    This also solves the "why choose the Albatross D.III over the Albatross D.Va" issue. At 250 points you could take 3 D.Vas but you won't have enough points for any Ace Abilities. You can take 3 D.IIIs and have a few points left over for a couple of cheap Ace Abilities or one really nice one. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the cost for the "J" deck go down one point. The J" and "B" decks cost the same and the "B" deck is slightly slower. This would make the Albatross D.III 79 points and would also lower the cost of the Pfalz D.III to 83 points, meaning you could take 3 of them in a 250 point list as well. Then you could choose between 3 slow Pfalzs with all of those hit points, 3 D.Vas, or 3 D.IIIs with some Ace Abilities. Again, it would need testing but on paper all of those seem like interesting choices.

    If you want more variety, just increase to 500 point lists. The same ratios would apply, therefore I think you'd still have the "less than 83 point" planes vs. "more than 83 point planes" delimma in that list as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    Bryan,
    The point system should not be used to compare fighters of 1915/16 to late 1918 fighters. Perhaps Nieuport 17 B guns x 5 at 265pts Vs Albatros D.III with A guns x 3 (with Bullet Checker, Sniper, and Lucky pilot) at 263pts would be a better comparision.
    I agree that this is typically how I would play (balanced by points AND year). Also, I like your suggested comparison, it would be fun to try that out.

    That being said, to me one of the nice things about the points system is that people can use it to balance whatever aircraft they happen to own. If one person has a lot of Series 5 stuff (perhaps he is trying to start a collection in historical order) and someone else has a lot of the planes he really likes (say, the guy who buys nothing but Fokker D.VIIs), they can still have a relatively balanced match. Also, for tournament play you might end up with some "power gamers" that purposefully try and create the most powerful list that they can within a points limit. In this situation you really could end up with a player using a ton of the cheapest models that he can. I've seen this in every miniatures game system that I've ever tried. A good point system should be balanced so that it doesn't matter what year the aircraft came out, players should be able to use what they have and expect a somewhat balanced outcome.

  42. #142

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    I'm inclined by "gut feel" to agree re upping the points on B-birds, also that while points and year both have value for balancing they should be separate.

    So, for example that schmuck who insists on always bringing D.VII's and Snipes, even when you're celebrating Max Immelmann's birthday or doing some other "theme day" they're totally inappropriate for, just tell him, "250 points, 1917 OR EARLIER" and he's benched by that unless he brought some earlier planes too. Though the M-S N and Eindecker are so weak I'm almost inclined to say they need a "1915/16 ONLY" rule to be competitive... even then it'll only help so much.

  43. #143

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    Well I have downloaded the spreadsheet and intend to use it at Border Reiver 2013 to balance the two sides in a, hopefully, non-stop game starting in 1915 and ending in 1918. Using over 46 different types of aircraft, replacing shot down aircraft with a suitable replacement further down the time scale. I'll let you know how we got on.

  44. #144

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    As long has you are having fun and it seems to me you are. LOL!

  45. #145

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    I was thinking more to 28 or 30 points for a B gun. Please let me think more about it.
    Please consider that the very choice of adding weapon value to the other points instead than using it as a multiplier (as a couple of people suggested, on a good theorical basis) already prevents an A firing plane to be valued twice a B firing one.

    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I play with up to 10 different players. I have noticed when given a choice between The Fokker Dr.I (86), Pfalz D.III (84), Albatros D.Va (82) and Albatros D.III (80) they always choose the Dr.I or V.a. When asked why they said "the Pfalz and D.III are to slow and unmaneuverable to be competitive". Have you had anyone else experienced these results? If so maybe there needs to be more of a separation between these aircraft.
    Personally I prefer the Dr.I too, being more fun, but between a Pfalz D.III and a D.Va I would prefer the first: more sturdy, and the slight loss in speed is balanced by tighter turns. The same is true for speed and maneuvrability of the D.III.

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    I was thinking more to 28 or 30 points for a B gun. Please let me think more about it.
    Fwiw, my gut tells me 28, if not 26.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Personally I prefer the Dr.I too, being more fun, but between a Pfalz D.III and a D.Va I would prefer the first: more sturdy, and the slight loss in speed is balanced by tighter turns. The same is true for speed and maneuvrability of the D.III.
    Unfortunately the tighter turns dont translate into a faster turn rate, so I've found that advantage to be marginal. On the other hand, the speed differential can be critical if you're engaged in any kind of pursuit or escape.

  48. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    I was thinking more to 28 or 30 points for a B gun. Please let me think more about it.
    I've updated the Wings of War Points Spreadsheet again, this time adding a tab for the "B" Firing Machine Guns at 30 (main page) and another for them priced at 28 (one of the last tabs) based on Andrea's feedback.

    Assuming a 250 point list again, here are a few numbers I found interesting:
    • 83: The most expensive Aircraft you can take 3 of in a 250 point list. This means that you can take 3 Albatross D.IIIs, D.Vas or Aviatik D.Is, but you can't take 3 Pfalz D.IIIs, SPAD XIIIs, or Fokker Dr.1s. To me, this feels right to me for everything except the Pfalz D.IIIs. I'd like to see the cost on the "B" maneuver deck decreased by 1 point so that you can take 3 Pfalz D.IIIs. Changing the price of the "B" machine guns to 30 or 28 doesn't really make much of a difference in this area because most of the aircraft close to this level are using "A" machine guns.
    • 62: The most expensive Aircraft you can take 4 of in a 250 point list. With 30 point "B" machine guns, you can take 4 Halberstadt D.IIIs, Airco DH2s, or Nieuport 17/23s, but cannot take 4 Sopwith Triplanes or "B" firing Aviatik D.Is. Lowering the price of the "B" machine guns from 30 to 28 allows you to take 4 "B" machine gune Aviatik D.Is, but otherwise doesn't change much.
    • 50: The most expensive Aircraft you can take 5 of in a 250 point list. With 30 point "B" machine guns you can take 3 Fokker E.IIIs, Nieuport 16s, or Morane Saulnier Type Ns. Reducing the cost to 28 points does not change anything at this points level.


    With 200 point lists, the numbers are 66 points for 3 Aircraft, and 50 points for 4 Aircraft. The only big difference that dropping the "B" cost to 28 points makes is that you can take 3 Sopwith Triplanes in a 200 point list with 28 point "B" guns.

    Based on these numbers, my gut is that pricing the "B" guns at 30 or 28 points won't make a huge difference either way. I'm going to test with 30 point "B" machine guns the next time that I play. I'll have to check to see if I have the models for it, but running 3 Ufag C.Is in a 250 point list might be an interesting experience.

    The one Aircraft that jumps out at me as possibly being overpowered with the 28 or 30 "B" cost machine guns is the "B" firing S.E.5a. At 74 points you have room for 3 of them in a 250 point list with 28 points left over for Ace Abilities. I know it's only a "B" firing machine gun, but it sure feels like it would be more powerful to have 3 of these than two Fokker DR.Is, no matter how many Ace Abilities you gave the Germans. I know I have 3 S.E.5as, so maybe this would be a good thing to playtest.
    Last edited by bcpravel; 08-15-2013 at 13:25.

  49. #149

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    the spreadsheet doesn't work

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by CH_Brun View Post
    the spreadsheet doesn't work
    Updated the URL. Better?

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