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Thread: Point system for Wings of Glory

  1. #351

    Default

    I don't play WGF with points, mostly because I don't see the need and can't be bothered, but also because I have found that some players alter their game play and tactics based on perceived "balance".

    For example, I have had players refuse to attack a pair of two-seaters until their third wingman joined them, to provide a local "points advantage" over the enemy.
    Also one player refused to engage a Fokker Triplane, believing it to be "too good" to overcome using his SPAD VII - he simply outran it and refused to fight.
    Some players have also demanded to know whether a flight of British DH4s were carrying 'A' guns or 'B' guns, before deciding whether or not to attack! I told them, there's only one way for you to find out!

    Good grief, some people really push my buttons..................

    Get stuck in, I say, and have a laugh!

  2. #352

    Default

    As Brigadier Peter Young once said.
    "Don't play with miserable buggers." Pardon my French Ladies.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  3. #353

    Exclamation

    For what its worth at our Club we have never used the points system.
    We are lucky that our group always like to fly historical match ups.
    If the Germans have an advantage in one scenario the Allies will soon have their turn with a better aircraft & there is great satisfaction to shoot down a A gunned Albatross with a B gunned Spad VII or Sopwith Triplane.

  4. #354

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I often ask myself, why did I find this game so attractive in the first place. The answers were its simplicity, no huge record keeping, no hours before a game trying to balance armies. Also speed of getting set up, playing the game, and packing up.
    Now I have added terrain, rules for guns, fuel consumption, and am back to trying to get a points system to even up the sides.
    Result, not quite as bad as setting up 6000 troops but well on the way. Also what Andy said. When did you actually get an equal fight? An unequal contest is where good Generalship comes in surely?

    Points in games other than competitions? Not for me thanks.

    Rob.
    As always I always respect your opinion. Point system could be used for tournaments and not for every day play.
    I watch X-wings get a lot of players in tournaments which if copied, might expand the number of WOG players if a point system was perfected for tournament use.
    May the sun always be at your back,
    John

  5. #355

    Default

    I see no point in playing WoW unless there is a degree of risk taking to give the game that realistic touch. Never use the points system if I can avoid it.
    As for Dr1 Vs Spad I have had games when the Spad stuffed the Tripe and vice versa
    Sounds to me Tim that they are a bunch of Wooses .


    I'm learning to fly, but I ain't got wings
    Coming down is the hardest thing

  6. #356

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    ......Good grief, some people really push my buttons.................. Get stuck in, I say, and have a laugh!
    Absobloodylutely Tim - I'm with the Brig on this one, can't stand these wallahs who won't have a go !
    LMF and all that, give 'em the white feather next time !

    "He is wise who watches"

  7. #357

    Default

    Haven't played with points yet, but I will definitely try out anytime soon.

  8. #358

    Default

    Well, every game you enjoy is a good game. But in THIS game we try to simulate historical encounters and this game reflects that very well. I feel no need for points, but - players have different needs and expectations. Their choice.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  9. #359

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Absobloodylutely Tim - I'm with the Brig on this one, can't stand these wallahs who won't have a go !
    LMF and all that, give 'em the white feather next time !
    +1

  10. #360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Get stuck in, I say, and have a laugh!
    Couldn't agree more. Though, and I'll be the first to admit it, I can get a little intense/competitive when playing, it's the fun and companionship that brings me back and keeps me growing the size of my hangar.

    Once the winning becomes the most important thing, it's time to take a step back.

  11. #361

    Default

    I'm neutral on the debate.

    On one hand, historical accuracy is the primary factor in working out scenarios (or even just kickaround dogfights). Accuracy in this context can mean "this mission would have been possible/likely" - it doesn't have to have been one that necessarily actually happened.

    However, having an approximation of relative effectiveness (a points value, if it's an accurate balance) can be useful and interesting, even if just afterwards when considering how the mission went; maybe the side with the higher points value didn't win after all, for example. Why not? Clever flying and good planning? Or did someone just get un/lucky?

    So for me the points value, while interesting, is only an adjunct. Nice to know (and thus should be relatively accurate), but not something I'll necessarily use in planning anything; for that I look at periods of operational availability and choose plans that would have been historically appropriate.
    Last edited by Prodromoi; 08-23-2015 at 09:29. Reason: Typo

  12. #362

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Once the winning becomes the most important thing, it's time to take a step back.
    This, repeated in flaming letters, thirty feet high.

  13. #363

    Default

    Only points to level a playing field for competitions. No other reason to use them.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  14. #364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Only points to level a playing field for competitions. No other reason to use them.
    I agree with this sentiment.

  15. #365

    Default

    I wonder if a more abstract version would work for those interested in using points in a tournament format, or as a balancing tool? Something that was based on the year the aircraft became operational, but taking into account the power of "A" guns and the dangerous nature of two-seaters. It might be too simple, but something like this might provide general guidelines.

    1914 = 1
    1915 = 2
    1916 = 3
    1917 = 4
    1918 = 5

    +1 for "A" guns
    +1 for each additional air gunner
    +1 for each "Ace" skill

    You would score the value of the aircraft when you shoot it down. You could either use it to balance out the number of aircraft in play, or reward those in older, less-capable aircraft for bringing down a more dangerous opponent.

    I'll have to think on this more... thoughts?

    So... that D.VII you're flying is worth 6 points, while the little Nieuport 17 would be worth only 3 points.
    Last edited by fast.git; 08-23-2015 at 09:41. Reason: Added an Example

  16. #366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    .... it's the fun and companionship that brings me back and keeps me growing the size of my hangar...
    There's nothing quite like having a big hangar Chris.... Oh Matron !

    "He is wise who watches"

  17. #367

    Default

    For those of use that want to use a point system lets continue the conversation and provide feedback to assist in its development.

    I went to Guns of August and introduced some players to using points and also discussed a WOG tournament for the Williamsburg Muster in Feb 2016.
    It went very well and there will be a WOG tournament at the Muster. As of now, it will 200pts using standard rules (with the exception of explosions will be removed) and the current point system.

    I'll be doing some more play testing and provide feed back. Your feedback is welcome as always.

    May the sun be at your back,
    John

  18. #368

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    I see no point in playing WoW unless there is a degree of risk taking to give the game that realistic touch. Never use the points system if I can avoid it.
    As for Dr1 Vs Spad I have had games when the Spad stuffed the Tripe and vice versa
    Sounds to me Tim that they are a bunch of Wooses .
    What are Wooses?
    There was a term like that used in USA back in the 60's but I believe it had an U in it.

  19. #369

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    I see no point in playing WoW unless there is a degree of risk taking to give the game that realistic touch. Never use the points system if I can avoid it.
    As for Dr1 Vs Spad I have had games when the Spad stuffed the Tripe and vice versa
    Sounds to me Tim that they are a bunch of Wooses .
    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    What are Wooses?
    There was a term like that used in USA back in the 60's but I believe it had an U in it.
    Wuss, or wussy: part wimp, and part ***** (small kitten? From Puss in Boots?).
    Urbandictionary.com - definition: Wuss
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  20. #370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Wuss, or wussy: part wimp, and part ***** (small kitten? From Puss in Boots?).
    Urbandictionary.com - definition: Wuss
    Thanks,
    I think you missed my pun!

  21. #371

    Default

    British made card total start end
    DH-4 H/AA/15 129 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Bristol F2B S/AB/16 111 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Bristol F2B S/BA/16 111 17/Q3 18/Q4
    DH-4 H/BA/15 109 17/Q2 18/Q4
    RE-8 K/BA/13 101 16/Q4 18/Q4
    Sopwith Snipe M/A/16 97 18/Q2 18/Q4
    SE-5a N/A/16 92 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Bristol F2B S/BB/16 91 17/Q2 18/Q4
    DH-4 H/BB/15 89 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Sopwith Camel C/A/15 86 17/Q3 18/Q4
    Sopwith Triplane U/A/13 86 17/Q1 17/Q4
    RE-8 K/BB/13 81 16/Q4 18/Q4
    SE-5a N/B/16 72 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Sopwith Triplane U/B/13 66 17/Q1 17/Q4
    Airco DH2 P/B/13 58 16/Q1 18/Q4

    Italian made card total start end
    Caproni Ca.3 XD/BB/25 143 16/Q3 18/Q4
    Hanriot HD 1 F/A/14 87 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Macchi M.5 B/A/14 84 18/Q1 18/Q4
    Hanriot HD 1 F/B/14 67 17/Q4 18/Q4

    French made card total start end
    BR-14 B/A2 K/AA/17 130 17/Q2 18/Q4
    BR-14 B/A2 K/BA/17 110 17/Q2 18/Q4
    BR-14 B/A2 K/BB/17 90 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Nieuport 28 F/A/14 87 17/Q4 18/Q2
    Spad XIII A/A/16 85 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Spad VII B/A/15 82 16/Q4 18/Q4
    Nieuport 17/23 I/A/12 76 16/Q1 17/Q3
    Spad VII B/B/15 62 16/Q4 18/Q4
    Nieuport 17/23 I/B/12 56 16/Q1 18/Q1
    Nieuport 11 E/B/10 50 16/Q1 17/Q2
    Nieuport 16 R/B/10 47 16/Q2 17/Q2
    Morane-Saulnier N T/B/10 46 15/Q2 16/Q2

    Austrian-Hungarian card total start end

    Ufag C.I H/BB/16 91 18/Q2 18/Q4
    Aviatik D.I Q/A/14 82 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Aviatik D.I Q/B/14 62 17/Q2 18/Q4

    German made card total start end
    Gotha G.V XD/BB/27 142 17/Q3 18/Q4
    Fokker DVII L/A/16 100 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Siemens-Schuck D.III O/A/14 93 18/Q2 18/Q4
    Hannover CL.III W/BB/16 93 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Roland C.II K/BB/15 92 16/Q2 17/Q2
    Halberstadt CL.II V/BB/16 90 17/Q3 18/Q4
    Fokker E.V F/A/15 89 18/Q3 18/Q4
    Fokker Dr.I D/A/13 85 17/Q4 18/Q4
    Rumpler C.IV K/BB/15 85 17/Q1 18/Q4
    Pfalz D.III J/A/16 83 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Albatross D.Va B/A/15 82 17/Q2 18/Q4
    Albatross D.III J/A/14 79 17/Q1 18/Q3
    Roland C.II K/-B/15 64 16/Q2 17/Q2
    Halberstadt D.II I P/B/14 60 16/Q1 17/Q4
    Albatross D.II V/B/14 58 16/Q4 17/Q4
    Siemens-Schukert D.I E/B/13 56 16/Q4 17/Q3
    Fokker E.III T/B/11 48 15/Q3 16/Q4

    I can never get charts to look good.
    Last edited by john snelling; 08-29-2015 at 14:24.

  22. #372

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tikkifriend View Post
    I see no point in playing WoW unless there is a degree of risk taking to give the game that realistic touch. Never use the points system if I can avoid it.
    As for Dr1 Vs Spad I have had games when the Spad stuffed the Tripe and vice versa
    Sounds to me Tim that they are a bunch of Wooses .
    If one thinks just because the Dr.I has a higher point value than a Spad VII the Dr.I will automatically lose they are wrong.
    Assuming that the point system is correct in its valuation and players have the same skill level.
    A Dr.I 85pts and a Spad VII 62 points means that if you play 100 games the Dr.I should win 61.5 times and the Spad 38.5 times.
    So the Spad winning should not be that unusual just unlikely.

  23. #373

    Default

    Quick request.

    When you update the points in the first post can you put the date or revision number and date?

    Thanks,

  24. #374

    Default

    Will you be adding point values for the 10 new skills in the Giants kickstarter?

  25. #375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    Will you be adding point values for the 10 new skills in the Giants kickstarter?
    I'm not getting the Giants, so if someone will provide them I will add them.

  26. #376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I'm not getting the Giants, so if someone will provide them I will add them.
    Private message sent.

  27. #377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    Will you be adding point values for the 10 new skills in the Giants kickstarter?
    Added at the start of the thread.

  28. #378

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Added at the start of the thread.
    Thanks Andrea!!!

  29. #379

    Default

    Thanks Andrea from me too!!!

  30. #380

    Default

    Where are the skills Balloon buster, Sharp eye, and Team coordination from? They weren't in the main book or in the Giants kickstarter.

  31. #381

    Default

    Good point. Sharp eye - you just showed you have it!

    Future series will feature some special rules and skills within each airplane pack:
    http://www.aresgames.eu/16080

    Series 9 will feature Gianni Ancillotto, famed for his medal won flying across an exploding balloon and returning to his arfield with pieces of yellow canvas from it haninging to the wings of his Nieuport 11; Armand de Turenne, 15 victories 12 of which shared with other pilots; and other aces with more skills.

  32. #382

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    Where are the skills Balloon buster, Sharp eye, and Team coordination from? They weren't in the main book or in the Giants kickstarter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Good point. Sharp eye - you just showed you have it!

    Future series will feature some special rules and skills within each airplane pack:
    http://www.aresgames.eu/16080

    Series 9 will feature Gianni Ancillotto, famed for his medal won flying across an exploding balloon and returning to his arfield with pieces of yellow canvas from it haninging to the wings of his Nieuport 11; Armand de Turenne, 15 victories 12 of which shared with other pilots; and other aces with more skills.
    Nice catch... and an interesting development.

    Quick question, Andrea, if I might...

    Will the [quoted from Ares' site] "specific cards with optional rules and game information appropriate for each model - such as the presence of drop tanks, optional armament, or pilot special abilities" be included in each version of the released aircraft? For example, will each Bébé contain the same special rules, or will the different rules be dispersed between the three versions of the N.11?

  33. #383

    Default

    No hide-and-seek and no marketing tricks, lets leave them to other publishers. It will depend on how much the rule is specific, but it will be featured on every plane to which it is to be applied.

    To be clear with examples. A card with a rule for the higher machinegun of Nieuport 11 will be on every Ni.11 in the series. But Sopwith 1 1/2 will have a special rule for the higher machinegun of the Sopwith 1 1/2 Comic that will be only in the pack on the Comic, not of others Sopwith 1 1/2 (that will feature no machineguns on the upper wing).
    At the same time, a special rule for alternative armament of Nieuport 11 (a penalty when the plane features at the same time Le Prieur rockets and the machinegun) will be only in the package of Ancillotto, the only Ni.11 model featuring the rockets and whose plane was flown in his famed mission, by historical evidence, without the upper machinegun not to hinder maneuvrability.
    Then up to you if to use these optional rules, and if to extend them to other planes to which you think they fit.

    Name:  Ancillotto.png
Views: 642
Size:  166.6 KB

  34. #384

    Default

    Sounds as if it is pretty well worked out Andrea.
    Thanks for the information.
    Can we expect more of this in future releases?
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  35. #385

  36. #386

  37. #387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Hooray!
    I resemble that remark.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  38. #388

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Yes!
    excellent

  39. #389

    Default

    That is the direction the game should evolve.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  40. #390

    Default

    I like the direction this is going. Will series reprints get the same treatment?

  41. #391

  42. #392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Yes.
    I'm confused. If you reprint will the new ones come with different rules than the ones we already own?

  43. #393

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Yes.
    Great!

    "I'm confused. If you reprint will the new ones come with different rules than the ones we already own?"

    Basic rules are the same but new/additional material for different pilots skills or optional weapons is what I am seeing happening.

  44. #394

    Default

    Cool. I like this direction, as well.

    Thanks for the detailed response, Andrea. It's very much appreciated.

  45. #395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Great!

    "I'm confused. If you reprint will the new ones come with different rules than the ones we already own?"

    Basic rules are the same but new/additional material for different pilots skills or optional weapons is what I am seeing happening.
    I didn't think the basic rules would change. I was curious though that if two different people have the same pilot and plane; one from the original printing and the other buys theirs in a few months will the newer plane with the same pilot have additional rules that the original didn't have.

    I just ordered quite a few planes in the last few months.

    Just curious, if I had waited would they have come out with additional materials?

  46. #396

    Default

    Waiting for reprints could be a loooooong wait. Most early original series planes are long gone. So far reprints have new colors/pilots, maybe one the same from the previous print run. I wouldn't hold off as you might not be able to get a certain plane ever again unless you paint it yourself. (but that's just me who buys every release!)

  47. #397

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    Waiting for reprints could be a loooooong wait. Most early original series planes are long gone. So far reprints have new colors/pilots, maybe one the same from the previous print run. I wouldn't hold off as you might not be able to get a certain plane ever again unless you paint it yourself. (but that's just me who buys every release!)
    There are a lot of planes available on Cool Stuff and Miniature Market. Will the new Richthofen Dr.I have new stuff that I didn't get in the plane I just bought?
    Last edited by Ken at Sunrise; 02-10-2016 at 12:46. Reason: spell'in

  48. #398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken at Sunrise View Post
    There are a lot of planes available on Cool Stuff and Miniature Market. Will the new Richthofen Dr.I have new stuff that I didn't get in the plane I just bought?
    All planes out so far are the same in that there is no new material different from the original series 1 & 2 and the reprint series 1 & 2. The only difference is the plane itself and its associated matching card. If a new Richtofen Dr.I comes out there may be something different, that's up to ARES.

  49. #399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Teaticket View Post
    All planes out so far are the same in that there is no new material different from the original series 1 & 2 and the reprint series 1 & 2. The only difference is the plane itself and its associated matching card. If a new Richtofen Dr.I comes out there may be something different, that's up to ARES.
    I know that, that was my question.

  50. #400

    Default

    Most of reprints change color schemes anyway.
    I think that future reprints could add some more cards with rules or skills (more than chanmge anything). But while WoW reprints can come soon, reprints of WG planes will take a lot of time.

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