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Thread: Point system for Wings of Glory

  1. #401

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Most of reprints change color schemes anyway.
    I think that future reprints could add some more cards with rules or skills (more than chanmge anything). But while WoW reprints can come soon, reprints of WG planes will take a lot of time.
    Thank you for your response. I appreciate being about to talk to the game designers, it is very nice. I play another game now where to get a model to be "competitive" you sometimes need to repurchase it in a different paint scheme. That sometimes is a little bothersome since I usually purchase the numbers I need to fill the squads right up front. It is disappointing to have all you need then feel you should buy more with different colours just for the upgrades.

    I don't get the opportunity to play very often so waiting for a better version of the same plane makes more sense to me. In the last several months I've purchased several Wings of Glory WWI planes. Right now I'm awaiting for an order that has several more planes so you can see my hesitation. Of course if only a specific plane came with a specific gun or armament then of course that makes perfect sense. But I like the idea of pilot career and skill cards, that gives everyone a chance to play what they already own.

    I don't mean to be be presumptuous and I apologize if I sound that way. I think the game is quite enjoyable (it is a lot of fun) and a good historical simulation. Thank you for your efforts in bringing this to us.
    Last edited by Ken at Sunrise; 02-10-2016 at 14:07. Reason: spell'in and grammar

  2. #402

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    Not taken as presumptuousness! I just wanted to be as clear as possible, in a situation where it is impossible to know 100% which will be the future.
    In any case, our intention is to make a game where you are never forced to buy new stuff and where nothing previopusly released is purposedly made obsolete by new releases just to take more money from you - as it happened and happens in other game systems. Ares even agreed to keep compatibility with all that has been previously published by others in the past dozen of years. New upgrades will be made available to make the game more fun, variated and historically accurate, but nothing will make your actual planes incomplete or outdated.
    A very few corrections are being made (as you maybe saw for early fighters maneuvre decks, to quopte an example) but old stuff, even if a bit less realistic, is still 100% enjoyable in the game.

  3. #403

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    Im very curious about the new skills added in the pointlist. Will they be made available for all of us or only with the purchase of a giant?

  4. #404

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    Four of the skills in list have different English names on the skill cards

    Fire control expert is just Fire Expert
    Rookie pilot is Emergency Pilot
    Agile guy is Lightfooted
    Precision bomb aimer is Precision Bombardier

    Probably it is just a different translation.

  5. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Most of reprints change color schemes anyway.
    I think that future reprints could add some more cards with rules or skills (more than chanmge anything). But while WoW reprints can come soon, reprints of WG planes will take a lot of time.
    Translation: Fokker E.IIIs and DH.2s will be scarce for some time yet. Fair, if inconvenient.

  6. #406

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Not taken as presumptuousness! I just wanted to be as clear as possible, in a situation where it is impossible to know 100% which will be the future.
    In any case, our intention is to make a game where you are never forced to buy new stuff and where nothing previopusly released is purposedly made obsolete by new releases just to take more money from you - as it happened and happens in other game systems. Ares even agreed to keep compatibility with all that has been previously published by others in the past dozen of years. New upgrades will be made available to make the game more fun, variated and historically accurate, but nothing will make your actual planes incomplete or outdated.
    A very few corrections are being made (as you maybe saw for early fighters maneuvre decks, to quopte an example) but old stuff, even if a bit less realistic, is still 100% enjoyable in the game.
    As always, Andrea, thank you for your willingness to share info here! It's one of the things that I find special about this game. Your continued participation in discussions have certainly increased the level of trust. And that is, to me, one of the most important things.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    Four of the skills in list have different English names on the skill cards

    Fire control expert is just Fire Expert
    Rookie pilot is Emergency Pilot
    Agile guy is Lightfooted
    Precision bomb aimer is Precision Bombardier

    Probably it is just a different translation.
    Huh. Hadn't noticed that. Interesting.

  7. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuladin View Post
    Four of the skills in list have different English names on the skill cards

    Fire control expert is just Fire Expert
    Rookie pilot is Emergency Pilot
    Agile guy is Lightfooted
    Precision bomb aimer is Precision Bombardier

    Probably it is just a different translation.
    Well not exactly, it's the editing by all the people that works on my texts. I originally write in English, but it's a secondary language to me. So there is a native English-speaking editor, plus an editing staff, plus the marketing... And a few afterthoughts. So for example the "rookie pilot" (an observer/gunner who can fly a plane in emergency if the original pilot is incapacitated) has been changed into "emergency pilot" to avoid confusion with the rookie rules (about real pilots who just finished flying school).
    Thanks a lot for noticing and fopr the fix! I will check it and correct the first post soon.

  8. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Not taken as presumptuousness! I just wanted to be as clear as possible, in a situation where it is impossible to know 100% which will be the future.
    In any case, our intention is to make a game where you are never forced to buy new stuff and where nothing previopusly released is purposedly made obsolete by new releases just to take more money from you - as it happened and happens in other game systems. Ares even agreed to keep compatibility with all that has been previously published by others in the past dozen of years. New upgrades will be made available to make the game more fun, variated and historically accurate, but nothing will make your actual planes incomplete or outdated.
    A very few corrections are being made (as you maybe saw for early fighters maneuvre decks, to quopte an example) but old stuff, even if a bit less realistic, is still 100% enjoyable in the game.
    Thank you for your help. I just recently got into this game and that was due to the Kickstarter Giants of the Sky campaign. With one entire game under my belt I've ordered several more planes. I'm very excited about the reprints of a couple of planes which are hard to find right now.

    Thank you again for both the game and responding to the players.

  9. #409

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    How about the Fire control, Balloon buster, Sharp eye, Weapon specialist, Intuitive, Team cohordination and double ace skills?
    These are not depicted in the RAP. Do they come with the giants? Will they available for download or inculded in a future expansion pack?

  10. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Not taken as presumptuousness! I just wanted to be as clear as possible, in a situation where it is impossible to know 100% which will be the future.
    In any case, our intention is to make a game where you are never forced to buy new stuff and where nothing previopusly released is purposedly made obsolete by new releases just to take more money from you - as it happened and happens in other game systems. Ares even agreed to keep compatibility with all that has been previously published by others in the past dozen of years. New upgrades will be made available to make the game more fun, variated and historically accurate, but nothing will make your actual planes incomplete or outdated.
    A very few corrections are being made (as you maybe saw for early fighters maneuvre decks, to quopte an example) but old stuff, even if a bit less realistic, is still 100% enjoyable in the game.
    Thank you for all of this. As well as for being willing to communicate this. It makes a huge difference to the gaming community.

  11. #411

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    Andrea, your input is always more than welcome. Thanks for the clarifications.

  12. #412

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    Are we able to know the point values of the new series 9 planes yet?

  13. #413

  14. #414

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    Speaking of is/will there be a Point List for WGS?
    Last edited by Nachtschwärmer; 05-06-2016 at 08:29. Reason: Kauderwelsch

  15. #415

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    There will be. There is not, yet. Some more patience... It's a busy moment, this score.

  16. #416

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    There will be. There is not, yet. Some more patience... It's a busy moment, this score.
    I have plenty of patience.

  17. #417

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    As far as the point system is concerned I will add my two cents in this coming weekend (too busy now).
    The reason for that is that last weekend I had a chance to participate in the X-Wing Open Series Tournament in Warsaw "Battle of Endor" (at least for a while).
    Some new experience...
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  18. #418

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    They grilled your rookie backside on the barbecue?
    Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!

  19. #419

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    They grilled your rookie backside on the barbecue?
    Both sides.
    Well, no luck at all. Once one of my damaged Ties was shot from range 3 through an asteroid with just 1 special damage on a red die. I was dead sure to evade the fire.
    I rolled 5 (FIVE) green blanks.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  20. #420

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Both sides.
    Well, no luck at all. Once one of my damaged Ties was shot from range 3 through an asteroid with just 1 special damage on a red die. I was dead sure to evade the fire.
    I rolled 5 (FIVE) green blanks.
    May be you didn't use the Force...

  21. #421

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    May be you didn't use the Force...
    Tie pilots are not force sensitive Dan.
    <img src=http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2554&dateline=1409073309 border=0 alt= />
    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  22. #422

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    As far as the point system is concerned I will add my two cents in this coming weekend (too busy now).
    Eager to hear from you!
    As soon as you are less busy.
    Thanks a lot!

  23. #423

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    Thank you for the update!

    I noticed that rookie pilot is 5 pts should that be -5 pts also should it be included in the single seat pilots also?
    Last edited by john snelling; 05-05-2016 at 10:37.

  24. #424

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    I saw you put the four new planes together.

    But that makes the Nieuport 11 listed twice. Easy to do if if they're not fully alphabetized I guess.

  25. #425

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Tie pilots are not force sensitive Dan.
    But dices are - every gamer know that dices are bloody Force sensitive. Especially when you are playing with your girlfriend

  26. #426

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    True. Wings of War planes were already there... At least you see that they are consistent, non randomly generated.
    I just shared the points for a feedback, I did not think that the thread would stand for years. I'll maybe reorder the list sooner or later... Or publish an alphabetical list in a future supplement.

  27. #427

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    True. Wings of War planes were already there... At least you see that they are consistent, non randomly generated.
    I just shared the points for a feedback, I did not think that the thread would stand for years. I'll maybe reorder the list sooner or later... Or publish an alphabetical list in a future supplement.
    I'm just glad you're sharing that with us. This is awesome for someone not playing strictly by history or time-lines.

    Thanks for doing this.

  28. #428

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    I have three questions. First, why is the Zeppelin Staaken 239 points, when the scenario included in the rules booklet with it had it fighting two fighters worth about ~170 points? Second, how much does it cost to add a ventral MG to the Staaken? Third, the ace skill 'sharp eye' I've been unable to find anywhere, and there's another one on the list of ace skill's that the same (I 'think' it was Weapon Specialist, but I'm not sure). Where are those ace skills written up at, and what do they do?

  29. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
    ...Third, the ace skill 'sharp eye' I've been unable to find anywhere, and there's another one on the list of ace skill's that the same (I 'think' it was Weapon Specialist, but I'm not sure). Where are those ace skills written up at, and what do they do?
    As Pistol Pete pointed out, the list of skills on the list that are as yet unknown is: Fire control, Balloon buster, Sharp eye, Weapon specialist, Intuitive, Team coordination and Double ace.

    Starting with the next set the airplane packs are going to include skill cards for the represented pilot. New skills, such as those above, will probably appear there.

  30. #430

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    Yes, and some are with the O/400 and Staaken already.
    The points are for an all-out dogfight. In scenarios where goals are different, or victory points are awarded for something different than just eliminating enemies, the value of the opposite sides can be uneven.
    I'd rate a Staaken 248, with an additional ventral gun.

  31. #431

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    Hi, I'm relatively new to WGF although getting there slowly. I'd appreciate some clarification relating to this thread, which I confess I do not fully understand. The reasons for a points system, relating to competitive play, are clear enough, but not the way in which the system is actually applied. For example, I had a game yesterday in which we had 3 DH2s against two Halberstadt DIIIs. We were trying to be close to an historical setup towards the end of the "Fokker Scourge" period and really the Central Powers planes should, we think, have been DIIs (have no idea what the difference would have made). So thinking of the points system, where a DH2 is worth 58 and the Halberstadt DIII is worth 60 and keeping in mind that one of the DH2s was really only meant to charge in, take pics, then beat it (ie it was a two on two fight ish) , how would the points system have made a difference to the game - or is it only about the initial selection process? Hope this makes sence. Thanks in advance for any replies Mike

  32. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeemagnus View Post
    Hi, I'm relatively new to WGF although getting there slowly. I'd appreciate some clarification relating to this thread, which I confess I do not fully understand. The reasons for a points system, relating to competitive play, are clear enough, but not the way in which the system is actually applied. For example, I had a game yesterday in which we had 3 DH2s against two Halberstadt DIIIs. We were trying to be close to an historical setup towards the end of the "Fokker Scourge" period and really the Central Powers planes should, we think, have been DIIs (have no idea what the difference would have made). So thinking of the points system, where a DH2 is worth 58 and the Halberstadt DIII is worth 60 and keeping in mind that one of the DH2s was really only meant to charge in, take pics, then beat it (ie it was a two on two fight ish) , how would the points system have made a difference to the game - or is it only about the initial selection process? Hope this makes sence. Thanks in advance for any replies Mike
    In this case it does not matter. The total value was only a 4 points apart, if I got it right 2 vs 2. It would make a difference if one side had 3 Bristol F2B Fighter B/A 111 total 333 pts vs 3 Albatros D.III 79 total 237 pts a difference of 96 pts. Now some blokes would be content in running that scenario, saying that the Germans have a chance of winning. To run a more balanced scenario the Germans should be running 4 Albatros D.IIIs.

  33. #433

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    I wonder if a more abstract version would work for those interested in using points in a tournament format, or as a balancing tool? Something that was based on the year the aircraft became operational, but taking into account the power of "A" guns and the dangerous nature of two-seaters. It might be too simple, but something like this might provide general guidelines.

    1914 = 1
    1915 = 2
    1916 = 3
    1917 = 4
    1918 = 5

    +1 for "A" guns
    +1 for each additional air gunner
    +1 for each "Ace" skill

    You would score the value of the aircraft when you shoot it down. You could either use it to balance out the number of aircraft in play, or reward those in older, less-capable aircraft for bringing down a more dangerous opponent.

    I'll have to think on this more... thoughts?

    So... that D.VII you're flying is worth 6 points, while the little Nieuport 17 would be worth only 3 points.
    This is probably the most sensible solution so far - it would need some tweaking I suspect but would have the added advantage of actually working. Thanks

  34. #434

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    Not a bad idea, totally in abstract then: You could have 2 B firing Eindeckers taking on a single Sopwith Snipe?
    See you on the Dark Side......

  35. #435

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    A BA/A firing Brisfit would be 6 points? (4 (1916) +1 (A gun) +1 (A gun) +1 (rear gunner))
    See you on the Dark Side......

  36. #436

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    I think so - maybe get a general consensus so if something was particularly good or bad it had a point buff or nerf into the next category. Plan a tournament with 10 points a side, Ace abilities are 1 point each but chosen at random and you may have a basic game to work with - and no multi engines for now

  37. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    A BA/A firing Brisfit would be 6 points? (4 (1916) +1 (A gun) +1 (A gun) +1 (rear gunner))
    1917 in service for the B that we have stats for so 4+1+1+1 =7 for the full loaded beast - not sure what you mean by a BA/A ??

  38. #438

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Not a bad idea, totally in abstract then: You could have 2 B firing Eindeckers taking on a single Sopwith Snipe?
    I still wouldn't want to be flying either Eindekker in this case.

  39. #439

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    ..not sure what you mean by a BA/A ??
    That denotes the fore and aft gun layout for two seaters Ken - B/B shows a standard layout of one gun firing forward with one mounted in the rear. BA/A shows a B and A firing guns to the front (3 guns); A firing (ie twin mount) mounted in the rear.

    "He is wise who watches"

  40. #440

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    That denotes the fore and aft gun layout for two seaters Ken - B/B shows a standard layout of one gun firing forward with one mounted in the rear. BA/A shows a B and A firing guns to the front (3 guns); A firing (ie twin mount) mounted in the rear.
    That's what I thought -

    Initial comment would be to forget the idea of three forward guns as it is so unusual, combined with the fact the rules really get stretched at that point. Putting 3 extra guns on a Brisfit wrecks he rate of climb to the point it would be a liability in a dogfight. Points wise however it would be 4 for the in service, plus one each for the additional guns plus one for the gunner so 8 points. I would aim initially for a 10 point game, so maybe it would work.

  41. #441

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    Up gunned aircraft like the "Biff" and the comics were usually only used in home defence squadrons anyway, where fuel consumption was not an issue.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  42. #442

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    I just pointed the outgunned Biff out for the reason what if somebody picked it as it was within the points structure. You may just get the user player who will try and field a powerfully armed aircraft, which can also immelmann and can sustain more than average damage.

    Also if there is a time limit on a game the what if could pit a single Biff against 4 eindeckers thereby extending the time as one player tries to control 4 aircraft.

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  43. #443

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    I suspect the way forward would be to limit to "official" planes to try out the system. Pushing it to breaking point is worth trying to see if it breaks - as an aside I'm not sure how it would do against a pair of DVs but thats partly the point. Still very much WIP - Neil's time point is also worth thinking about although I think the real problem would be if both players brought 4 planes. Then again all competitions face similar issues so its hardly insurmountable

  44. #444

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    Andreas' original points system is workable. Limit the competition to single seater scouts. That is workablee and I've tried it out,

    Fokker DVII = 100 points

    Sop Camel = 86 points + 8 (Daredevil) + 6 (Acrobatic Pilot I) = 100

    We could go round the houses many times and come up with different ways to do the same thing.

    The only way to check it, is to play it out with multiple players. Then amend/change/adapt as necessary.

    Whatever competition details you come up with players will plump for the high damage/A firing later war planes. No one will want to fly an Eindecker/Morane etc.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  45. #445

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    I think we would have to agree to disagree there. Andrea's system for me is not fit for purpose - my purpose that is. Players may want to try flying multiples if the differential is there.

  46. #446

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    I think that is why we will never get a consensus on points systems Ken.
    As gamers from varying backgrounds and experiences we all have a slightly different take on what balance is, and how we want to pitch it to the players, with the fewest loopholes for gamesmanship. This is a bit like trying to juggle soap in the bath.
    I think that eventually after all the suggestions have been aired and digested, we must each find our own way of reaching the optimum solution for our needs in this respect.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  47. #447

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    I know Andrea has put a lot of work into balancing his point system and I think it is robust enough used in conjunction with a healthy dose of common sense.

    I have participated in very successful Wings of War/Glory tournaments without a point system, but simply using a date to guide aircraft selection. It keeps things somewhat rational and cheese weasellers who want to take Snipes etc all the time are just out of luck. For example you may play a tournament where round one is set in October 1916, round two in October 1917, and round three in October 1918. If players really want to run two seaters play a date stamped two seater round as well.

    To really mix things up players can also randomly select nationality tokens to see which aircraft they can fly. That can really challenge pilots when they suddenly can't choose their favourite plane

  48. #448

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    I still wouldn't want to be flying either Eindekker in this case.
    I've taken on D.VIIs in a DH2 before now - though most of the other aircraft on my side were Camels and the like.

    Got one kill before being forced off the table. It's a challenge, no question.

  49. #449

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    Just curious.

    Why is the Nieuport 11 at 50 points and the Nieuport 16 at 47?

    The only other planes less than 55 points are the Fokker E.III and Morane-Saulnier Type N.
    So I'm guessing these are early period planes.
    Last edited by Ken at Sunrise; 11-01-2016 at 08:14. Reason: spell'in

  50. #450

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    It depends on their statistics and performances, rather than period. The Ni.16 had a more powerful engine than the Ni.11 while sharing the same structure, but this made it heavier and unbalanced. So it did not gain speed while it lost agility - it has not the whide sideslips that are the most peculiar maneuvre for the Ni.11. Hence the lower value - and the fact that prioduction was discontinued in favor of Ni.17, that's been really re-designed to fit the larger engine.

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