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Thread: Game time vs ground scale/distance

  1. #1

    Default Game time vs ground scale/distance

    Hey everyone,

    As I am on a quest to get some neat maps for the game I was wondering if someone might be able to help.

    So my question is: In a manouver phase how much time does that roughly translate to?

    The reason I am asking this is to get a scale perspective on how much map area would be covered if a plane was travelling at average flying speed.

    I know I am looking for something very generic here and I possibly even want to use the same maps for the 1/200th scale WWII system as well so this will become somewhat even muddier.

    Hope my query makes sense... lol

    Michael

  2. #2

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    The simple (if slightly odd) answer is that ground scale is the 'scale of table top'. The game was designed to be able to be played on a 3' x 3' table and that dictated the size of the cards / length of the arrows. There has (quite deliberately, I think) never been an official distance or time scale.

    Some 'back of a napkin' style calculation can give you a rough approximation of something that seems to make sense. (Is this a vague enough sentence?!)

    1. Make an assumption of distance scale: If you treat a range ruler as approximately 200 meters / yards - not an unreasonable engagement range for the time - you get a scale something like 1mm = 1m.

    2. Extrapolate to speed/time: A Sopwith Camel will move ~ 113mm per phase or 340mm per turn. (So 340m in scale.) Take the maximum speed of a Camel (185kph) and reduce it, you get approximately 50m/s, so a game turn would be somewhere around 7 seconds.

    3. Check for reason-ability: Does it take a Camel approximately 7 seconds to turn slowly 180 degrees? I'm no expert on this, but it sounds to me to be within the limits of reasonable.

    You could call it 6 seconds to make it evenly divisible by 3... 2 seconds per phase. This would give you ~0.9m / mm ground scale (or 1:900)

    At any rate, that's my quick-and-dirty ground scale calculation. I'm interested to see what others come up with!

  3. #3

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    The main problem with trying to establish a map that looks right in corelation to the speed of the aircraft is that the look of it will vary with the height at which the action is taking place. Also the fact that horizontal distance and vertical height are on two totally different scales.
    I would go for something that looks approximately correct for the height that you usually fly and leave it at that. Otherwise you will need dozens of different mats. In that direction lies madness.
    I only use two. Low level ground strafing and bombing, or medium level dog fighting. High level stuff can be done over a white sheet to represent the cloud base.
    Rob.

  4. #4

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    That's a good idea Rob, about having 3 maps especialy the white one for fighting above the cloud base

  5. #5

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    The elevation level inconsistency is something that has been acknowledged. You shouldn't try to work out game scale using elevations and climb rates. That is madness for sure. You end up with 15 minute long turns!

    Something else that I just thought of is that the ground scale will need to roughly match the size represented by the bomb targeting card. A single bomb card would cover 6-or-so 1:900 scale vehicles, for example. Hmmm. More to ponder.

  6. #6

    Exclamation

    Here is a beautiful mat made by one of the Forum Members from the USA.
    I just love the Cloud effects. From memory I think its about 6 ft x 4 ft. (?)

    Name:  <acronym title=wow Aerial Veiw Games mat with Cloud effect..jpg Views: 101 Size: 180.1 KB" style="float: CONFIG" />

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    That's a good idea Rob, about having 3 maps especialy the white one for fighting above the cloud base
    I can't claim the white mat as my own idea. My wife suggested it for one of the "Over the Trenches" scenarios which included a morning mist element.
    Rob.

  8. #8

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    No, after a study of scales in old simulation boardgames (from Richthofen's War to Wings, from Aces High to Blue Max and more) I decided not to follow a precise scale. When we designed the game, in our minds a maneuvre card played was a couple of seconds in real life, anyway - perfectly fitting with steel_ratt guess! Congratulations.
    It is also the equivalent of games where in a turn you can perform a complex maneuvre matching three of our cards (a 180°, an Immelmann turn) and the declared/calculated scale is around 5 second per turn.

  9. #9

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    C-Grif - great question. S-Ratt - excellent extrapolation. and Angiolillo - thanks for more insight into how this game came to fruition. On that note unless I miss my guess, while this game is a great experience played with miniatures on a lush photo printed landscape, it was actually originally designed as a card game fully positioned to be played on a kitchen or dining room table. Provides great fun either way so I don't get too bogged down in time/distances....but I must admit I'm still flummoxed by the ability/inability to "come out of the sun" per the Boelke Dicta. Any method for this in the works? Again, Angiolillo - thanks for a great game.

  10. #10

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    Yes the game was originally on standard poker/magic cards:

    http://www.aresgames.eu/5018

    It was Nexus to shrink them to allow playing on a normal kitchen/dining table. Each dining person needs 60/70 cm of space. 90 cm, or 3', is actually a good standard for rectangular dining tables widths and a good minimum for a square table side:

    http://furniture.about.com/od/dining...asurements.htm

    So 3' x 3' (or 90 cm x 90 cm) became the standard size of WoW basic scenarios with the 4 planes allowed by basic boxes. It is also, more or less, the distance that allows two planes starting adjacent to opposite sizes to fly straight toward each other and exchange firing in the first turn.
    Experience then showed that with some care a 70 x 70 cm pub table can be used too (especially for 1to1 duels). Personal experience showed that in that case some care must be required by the SPAD XIII pilot (me the first time I tried Famous Aces in a pub against 3 beginners, hilarious after the game designer's SPAD fell of the table because of a too large turn - but I was more used to the Dr.I...).



    Hun in the Sun scenario: I'll try to invent right now... then up to you to refine.

    Allied planes write down moves for the first four turns (cards for the first turn, card numbers secretly written down on paper for the following three). German planes plan normally.
    German planes are "unspotted", put a marker on them. They can not be fired at. They become "spotted" (take away the marker and use them normally)at the end of a phase in which they fire.
    If an unspotted German plane enters the firing cone of an enemy plane (front one, rear one, it does not matter) at any distance, even more than one ruler, connect the center of your plane to the center of the target with a long rope or something like that. If the line connecting them makes an agle of more than 60° with the German side of the table or its continuation, it stays unspotted. If it makes an angle of les than 60°, or if it does not cross that suide/its continuation at all, it is spotted (advanced rule: it is spotted only by that plane, for the others it is still unspotted until they spot it or somebody fires at it).
    Allied planes start planning normally the turn after they spot an enemy (ignore the other written down orders), or from the fifth turn onward.
    Optional: any time somebody fires, connect the centers of planes. If the line makes an angle of 60° or more with the German side, negate the aim bonus (harder to fire against the sun).

    A bit too complicated maybe, and requiring a long rope and a set square to measure 60°. But is this the principle that you would like to have in the game?

  11. #11

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    Again - thank you everyone for your insight!!

    Michael

  12. #12

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    The only way I have played this is as follows:- My aircraft head in a straight line toward the enemy side of the lines.
    Throw a D12. The enemy enter as on a clock face with 12 in the direction my aircraft is heading and one peg higher.
    Every three cards each of my pilots draws a B card. If special damage comes up he spots the enemy and may plan the next three moves as normal.His wingmen may not do so until the following turn unless they have also drawn a special damage card.
    If fire takes place, all planes will be able to plot moves from the next card on.
    Rob.

  13. #13

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    I like the simpler types of rules my self and think that there in not really a need to game or play the portion leading up to the spotting of the attacking aircraft. The game should start when the engagement does. Since this rule would be used pretty much exclusively in a scenario, it does not matter that one side has an advantage.

    Setup the defending planes in the center of the table (to allow more maneuvering room) and then place the attacking planes one ruler behind and one altitude above them. This simulates that the attacking planes made the effort to stock the enemy until the most opportune time to attack. Each side planes the first turn normally, but the defenders do not actually fly the very first maneuver (their planes stay in the same spot). This lets the attackers pounce on them for one round, and then the defenders start reacting and the carefully laid plan falls apart. The attackers still have a distinct advantage those next two cards (and maybe even tailing the next turn), but the defenders can still get away if they fly good.

    Simple - fun - and all about the action!

  14. #14

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    Far too simple an explanation for the likes of us Herr Oberst.
    We like to complicate things until you need a computer to work out the next move.
    I intend to adopt your method forthwith, as the easyist solution to the "Hun in the Sun" scenario.
    Thanks.
    Rob.

  15. #15

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    Yes, my group talked about the Hun in the sun rule quite a bit and finally decided, either the attack worked or it did not. If it did not, it's just a normal game. If it did, it only made sense to play from the start of the attack.

  16. #16

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    I have an even-simpler method:

    Place the "bounced" plane in the center of the field. Take a straight card belonging to the "bouncing" plane. Hold the card 3' above the playing surface, and release; whichever direction the card is pointing when it lands is the direction from which the "bouncing" plane arrives.

    (It's a variant on the rules I use for figuring nova-cannon fire in _BattleFleet Gothic_: Use six-sided dice which either have numbers on them, or are marked with a "top" for each side. Roll the dice; the number which appears is how far it scatters, while the direction the "top" is facing is the direction of the scatter....)



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