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Thread: Air Battle over Turkey in 1917

  1. #1

    Default Air Battle over Turkey in 1917

    I think it might be interest to run an Air Battle over the Turkish Front scenario in 1917. I believe the Turkish/German pilots were flying the standard German planes for the prior year - Fokker E.III, Halberstadt D.II, Fokker D.I, and Albatros C.III. Anybody know what Allied aircraft would have been used over the Turkish Front in 1917?

  2. #2

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    Hey Mike,

    This front is on my list. Night bombing with Bedouin too. Maybe even some Mesopotamian action!

    Max Z

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike W View Post
    I think it might be interest to run an Air Battle over the Turkish Front scenario in 1917. I believe the Turkish/German pilots were flying the standard German planes for the prior year - Fokker E.III, Halberstadt D.II, Fokker D.I, and Albatros C.III. Anybody know what Allied aircraft would have been used over the Turkish Front in 1917?
    Some of the Allied planes out there were. Sopwith Baby, Short 184, Bristol M. IC. Nieuport 10. RE.8 Bristol F2B.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  4. #4

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    Sounds intresting, I know nothing about the air was over the Turkish front with all the early war planes coming out of Shapeways it could make for a good game

  5. #5

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    There are possibilities here, I have Brit, Arab and Turkish armies in 1/300 sitting in a box will have blow the dust off slap a bit of paint on and work up a few scenarios.

  6. #6

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    The Turkish black square marking provides an interesting variation for German planes....

  7. #7

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    very interesting thread ,Mike thanks for starting it.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    Some of the Allied planes out there were. Sopwith Baby, Short 184, Bristol M. IC. Nieuport 10. RE.8 Bristol F2B.
    Rob.
    The Essential aircraft guide Aircraft of WW1 by Amber books is a great buy!

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    The Essential aircraft guide Aircraft of WW1 by Amber books is a great buy!
    Where is it a great buy ?

    They run $70 and up on Amazon.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakopious View Post
    Where is it a great buy ?

    They run $70 and up on Amazon.
    When I bought it it was $30 and later I seen it for $25. Prices on Amazon are ridiculious! At Bookkoob they are 13.19 pounds.

  11. #11

  12. #12

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    Very useful piece of info Richard. That is more than I knew about the captured machines they were using.
    Thanks, Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by itchy View Post
    The website lists the captured allied aircraft as of December 1916 and lists a SPAD 13. Hmmm.

  14. #14

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    I think the 1916 december bit refers to the date the turkish had most aircraft available if you look through there are some dated as being recieved in 1917 and 18 and I cant see a date at all on the spad 13 section but then again I am doing three things at once so am ready to be corrected .

  15. #15

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    Definitly interested in this theatre....specifically from a historical perspective. Ask people aroundbyou today about the Ottoman Empire and they are likely to tell you it is one of those planets in Star Wars. Good thread and will be watching with interest as it grows

  16. #16

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    From postings and a little research it looks like the scout matchups might be:

    Late 1916 -Early 1917: Fokker E.III, Fokker D.I & Halberstadt D.II vs DH1, Bristol Scout (C or D?) & BE12*
    Mid 1917: Fokker D.I & Halberstadt D.II vs Bristol Scout (C or D?), BE12a* & Martinsyde G.102
    Late 1917: Halberstadt D.V & Albatros D.II vs, Martinsyde G.102 & Vickers FB.19
    1918: Halberstadt D.V, Albatros D.III & Albatros D.V vs Bristol M.I & Bristol F2B.

    *BE12s were based upon the BE2c. BE12as were based on the BE2e.

    Another interesting website: http://ottomanmilitary.devhub.com/bl...-aircraft-wwi/
    Last edited by Mike W; 12-19-2011 at 13:20. Reason: Added Vickers FB.19

  17. #17

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    I think that'd be a great direction for a card booster release to test the waters and then do the planes for it if the booster sells well!

  18. #18

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    Sorry if I am hijacking this thread but I'd be interested in anything Turkish air war related.

  19. #19

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    Sounds like a good game to play when the new planes come out.

  20. #20

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    On 9th July 1917 Constantinople was bombed by a Handley Page O/100 carrying twelve 112lb bombs. It had arrived from Britain the previous day. On the night of 2nd/3rd September, it was used to bomb Adrianople. The pilot on that occasion was Jack Alcock, who in 1919 flew the Atlantic in a Vickers Vimy with Arthur W. Brown.

  21. #21

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    The AFC was involved too - with G.102s, Brisfits. At last one N17 with two guns - vickers and lewis in mid 17.

  22. #22

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    Very interesting stuff,thanks

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakopious View Post
    Where is it a great buy ?

    They run $70 and up on Amazon.
    Kenneth - these books are currently at about $25 (temporarily on sale) at The Book Depository UK. (2011 edition). I have dealt with this company, they are very professional and offer FREE world wide postage.




    http://www.bookdepository.com/Aircra.../9781906626662
    Last edited by Dark Horse; 07-12-2012 at 18:25. Reason: add URL

  24. #24

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    Wings of War has a few Turkish cards.

    Burning Drachens: Nieuport 17 Vecihi Hürkuş - Kuvva-i Havvaiye
    Recon Patrol: Breguet BR.14 B2 - - Kuvva-i Havvaiye
    Immelmann: Fokker E.III Hauptmann Hans Joachim Buddecke 6 Bölük Kuvva-i Havvaiye

    The last one is one of the miniatures that are being released next monday in USA (more or less) for Wings of Glory.

    The Ni.17 is one of a couple of Russian planes captured on a bardge:
    http://www.tayyareci.com/digerucakla...nieuport17.asp
    I do not know when it happened, so if these planes had been used in 1917. The link above has a picture of the pilot in front of the plane in 1918 and his biography on Wikipedia quotes the fact that he built a propeller from scratch for one of these two planes in 1918, but I can not say if it was before operating them - or maybe after an accident - or maybe to operate the second after months of flights with the first one - or... In any case, if somebody flew it in 1917 it was not him (he was captuired by Russians and escaped in 1918, again according to Wikipedia).

    For even later scenarios, there is a Greek SPAD VII in Hit & Run belonging to Sgt Christoforos Stavropoulos. He got a victory against a Turkish plane the 10th of July, 1922. Wasn't there a recent thread on post-1918 scenarios, in this forum?
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 08-02-2012 at 21:33.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Wasn't there a recent thread on post-1918 scenarios, in this forum?
    Maybe -- the problem is: Lack of data. This is what comes of everyone focusing on The Big Shows.... :P

  26. #26

  27. #27

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    I hope useful

    From the italian monograph Alberto Rosselli - Le aquile della mezzaluna L'aviazione turca durante la prima guerra mondiale (The eagles of crescent moon The Turkish air force during World War I) - Chillemi Edizioni the German planes supplied to Turkey between 1915 and 1918:

    Model Years Amount
    Albatross B.I 1915-1918 3
    Albatross C.I 1915-1918 7
    Albatross C.II 1915-1918 8
    Albatross C.III 1915-1918 65
    Albatross D.II 1917 3
    Albatross D.IV 1918 31
    Albatross D.V/Va 1918 3
    Rumpler B.I 1915-1918 18
    Rumpler C.I 1917-1918 10
    LVG B.I 1915-1916 3
    Fokker E.I 1915-1917 4
    Fokker E.III 1916-1917 9
    Fokker D.I 1917-1918 8
    Fokker D.VI 1918 7
    Gotha W.D.II 1916-1917 6
    Pflaz A.II 1916-1917 10
    Halberstadt D.V 1917 33
    AEG C.IV 1917 46

    This monograph is really interesting A lot of info, colors and B/W pics and few tables.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Attila57 View Post
    Model Years Amount
    Albatross D.IV 1918 31
    Should be D.III

  29. #29

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    Yes, Zoe

    I apologize for this my error of transcription. The table in the book is correct.

    Model Years Amount
    Albatross B.I 1915-1918 3
    Albatross C.I 1915-1918 7
    Albatross C.II 1915-1918 8
    Albatross C.III 1915-1918 65
    Albatross D.II 1917 3
    Albatross D.III 1918 31
    Albatross D.V/Va 1918 3
    Rumpler B.I 1915-1918 18
    Rumpler C.I 1917-1918 10
    LVG B.I 1915-1916 3
    Fokker E.I 1915-1917 4
    Fokker E.III 1916-1917 9
    Fokker D.I 1917-1918 8
    Fokker D.VI 1918 7
    Gotha W.D.II 1916-1917 6
    Pflaz A.II 1916-1917 10
    Halberstadt D.V 1917 33
    AEG C.IV 1917 46


    In the same book there's this other table. about Turksih Aviation in 1916

    Unit
    Region
    Pilots
    Observers
    Aircrafts
    Description
    Aircraft Station Squad/
    Air School
    Yeș Ilköi
    26
    16
    26
    Various
    300th "Pascha"
    Aircraft Squadron
    Palestine
    12
    10
    12
    1st Squadron
    Gallipoli
    5
    2
    3
    Albatros C.III
    2nd Squadron
    Tikrit
    4
    4
    13
    Various, many captured
    3rd Squadron
    Maan
    4
    2
    10
    Albatros B
    Rumpler 13.III
    4th Squadron
    Adana
    3
    2
    2
    Albatros B and C
    5th Squadron
    Izmir
    4
    2
    2
    Albatros C.III
    6th Squadron
    Çanakkale
    7
    2
    Fokker E.I
    Halberstadt D.V
    7th Squadron
    Erzurum
    2
    2
    3
    Albatros C.III
    Caudron, captured
    8th Squadron
    Yeș Ilköi
    2
    2
    2
    Albatros C.III
    9th Squadron
    Yeș Ilköi
    1
    2
    5
    Albatros D.III Fokker
    10th Squadron
    Elaziğ
    6
    5
    5
    Albatros C.III
    Naval Air Squadron
    Çanakkale
    5
    5
    5
    Gotha W 13
    Total
    81
    57
    90

  30. #30

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    Turkish Aviation not Tuksih.







    Rep given for some great research.


  31. #31

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    Reporting from holidays in Turkey right now, Ladies and Gentlemen
    No flights yet

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Turkish Aviation not Tuksih.







    Rep given for some great research.

    between my poor english and age I don't know who does more damage

    Thx for rep! I'll try to publish a few other info from this nice monograph (80 pages)

  33. #33

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    Keep the great information coming Attilio.

    (btw my father was Turkish, hence the interest)

  34. #34

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    Thx!!

    From the same source:

    These was the German military units operating alongside the Turks in the period 1916-1917

    Fliegerabteilung 300 "Pascha" (FA300): from 22.1.1916 Palestine
    Fliegerabteilung 301 (FA301): from 12.7.1917 Palestine
    Fliegerabteilung 302 (FA302): from August 1917 Palestine
    Fliegerabteilung 303 (FA303): from 23.7 1917 Palestine
    Fliegerabteilung 304 b (FA304 b): from 20.7.1917 Palestine
    Fliegerabteilung 305 (FA305): from November 1917 Palestine

    The R.F.C. used these aircraft:

    Farman R.E.7, R.E.8
    Bristol F.2B, D.H.1, D.H.2
    Amstrong Withworth F.K.8
    Sopwith Baby (idro)
    Handley-Page O/100, O/400
    Bristol M.1C
    Vickers F.B.19
    Royal Aircraft Factory S.E. 5a

    while Russian untile 1917 on all the fronts:

    Lebed VII

    Attachment 57352

    Bleriot

    Anadwa VKh,

    Attachment 57353

    Anatra DS

    Attachment 57354

    Farman 30

    Voisin Ivanov

    Attachment 57355

    Voisin LAS

    Attachment 57356

    Nieuport XXI

    Moran Parasol

    Spad A2

    and idro Curtis and Grigorovich (I post M-11 and M-12 pics)

    Attachment 57357Attachment 57358

  35. #35

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    As your 'Turkish Front' seems from the previous submissions to actually be Palestine and Mesopotamia:

    Mesopotamian Half Flight AIF
    MF7
    MF11
    Caudron G3
    Martinsyde S1

    14 Sqn RFC/RAF
    DH1a
    DH2
    Vickers FB19
    Martinsyde G.100/G.102
    Bristol Scout
    BE2c
    RE8
    Nieuport 17

    30 Sqn RFC/RAF
    Martinsyde S1
    RE8
    SPAD 7 (with overwing Lewis gun)

    67 Sqn RFC / 1 Sqn AFC
    Martinsyde G.100/G.102
    BE2c
    BE2e
    BE12a
    Vickers FB19
    Bristol M1c
    RE8
    Bristol F2b
    HP 0/100

    72 Sqn RFC/RAF
    SPAD 7
    SE5a
    DH4
    Martinsyde G.100/G.102
    Bristol M1c

    111 Sqn RFC/RAF
    Bristol M1c
    DH2
    Vickers FB19
    Nieuport 17
    Nieuport 24
    Bristol F2b
    SE5a

    113 Sqn RFC/RAF
    BE2e
    RE8
    Nieuport 24bis

    142 Sqn RFC/RAF
    BE12a
    RE8
    A-W FK8

    144 Sqn RAF
    DH9

    145 Sqn RAF
    SE5a

    269 Sqn RAF
    BE2e
    Short 184
    DH9

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...r-I-(Schiffer)
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-Corps-1914-19
    Last edited by Baldrick62; 08-17-2012 at 15:08. Reason: refs

  36. #36

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    I don't find a detailed list about Allied Squadrons and the fronts but I agree the main reference is Palestine. If I find some reference in the text I'll publish info.

    Attilio



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