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Thread: new altitude rules in Rules and Accessories Pack?

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    Default new altitude rules in Rules and Accessories Pack?

    Cheers!

    If I'm not wrong I remember I've read something about the new Ares' WW1 Rules and Accessories Pack will bring a change in the altitude rules system. Am I right about it? If yes, is there any hint about what the new rules look like? (I've pre-ordered the Pack already, but curiosity is killing me)

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallo Rojo View Post
    Cheers!

    If I'm not wrong I remember I've read something about the new Ares' WW1 Rules and Accessories Pack will bring a change in the altitude rules system. Am I right about it? If yes, is there any hint about what the new rules look like? (I've pre-ordered the Pack already, but curiosity is killing me)
    G'day Ezekeil!
    No you are correct my friend.
    However I do not think they are earth changing alterations only a small tweek to make them more user friendly.
    Sorry I have not any more info. Like you I have preordered the Rules pack which should be available by end August.

  3. #3

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    Actually, I think from the Poll Andrea ran here and other feedback he got, I don't think he changed anything in the actual rules.

    I think what we will see is just breaking them down into the Basic, Standard and Advanced rules categories. I could see the Basic rules not using altitude at all. Standard rules adding in altitude, but no climb rates, and finally the Advanced rules adding in the climb rates. This is pure speculation on my part however.

  4. #4

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    The SSW D.IV has been downgraded to climb 2 - climb 1 broke the Immelman etc mechanics. I think that's it.

  5. #5

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    And I would not call that an altitude rule change... more of an aircraft stat update (similar to the new T deck).

  6. #6

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    Other change in statistics: level 0 is now level 1, and the maximum climb is increaserd by 1 for everyone.
    A new check of historical stats brought some changes in individual statistics of climb rates.
    There are some advantages if you shoot from above or diving, and some difficulties if you shoot at an overdiving target.
    But overall the system is the same.

  7. #7

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    Ok, sounds like the actual WoG WW II rules.

    The one thing that changed: If you make now a "normal" dive to level 0 (or 1 with the new rules) - you chrash.

    With the old rules you always kept one climb marker. Page 14 DoW Deluxe Rulebook.



    With the new rules, to get lower then level 0 (or 1 with the new rules) - you need to perform a landing maneuver.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Other change in statistics: level 0 is now level 1, and the maximum climb is increaserd by 1 for everyone.
    A new check of historical stats brought some changes in individual statistics of climb rates.
    There are some advantages if you shoot from above or diving, and some difficulties if you shoot at an overdiving target.
    But overall the system is the same.
    Thanks Andrea, as much as speculation and rumour can be fun, it is always good to get the straight facts from the man himself

    My own speculation from the teaser on the Ares website was somewhat different; I am glad you posted before I got it wrong

    Dave

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    There are some advantages if you shoot from above or diving, and some difficulties if you shoot at an overdiving target.
    But overall the system is the same.
    The area of shooting at a target above you is an issue. There's a reason why early aircraft had guns firing upwards, at an angle far greater than needed to clear the prop. The British habit of having a Lewis capable of off-horizontal fire, especially to use against 2-seaters, also needs looking at. Finally, one thing that made the D.VII (and Pfalz D.XV) so nasty was they could go under a victim, then "hang on the prop" firing upwards.

    Modelling this without over-complicating the game mechanics is difficult, and may be impossible.

    As we've found out, many 2-seaters could use something like the "Roland Rule", the ability to shoot forwards at anything above them. The Brisfit in particular.

    Official aircraft that can do this kind of thing include the Br14, the Roland, the Brisfit. The others could do the same kind of thing, but not as much.

    I like simple game mechanics, so anything in this area should be "advanced optional" and possibly even a new supplement/product.

  10. #10


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    Thanks about your answers guys (especially Andrea )

    one further question: is it there a rule that helps re-create boom&zoom tactics using altitude?

  11. #11

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    "Finally, one thing that made the D.VII (and Pfalz D.XV) so nasty was they could go under a victim, then "hang on the prop" firing upwards"

    I know there's a lot of popular myth and legend surrounding "prop hanging" but the technical discussion I've seen on this in the past suggests its really being able to maintain a higher AoA than normal which gives some advantage, but with the result that the aircraft's speed was rather low (just above stall) and hence could make the aircraft an easier target (and aircraft with elevating guns such as the Fe2 could achieve the same result). I also recall seeing something that said Dr1s were similar in this regard. The D.VII clearly couldn't prop hang in the way a modern aviator would understand.

    Agree some handy rules on shooting at aircraft above the shooter would be worth thinking about - for example allowing "prop hangers" and aircraft with elevateable guns to shoot at higher targets when they are overlapped, possibly a bonus if shooting at prop hangers. Another area worthy of study and development by the house rule develpment experts here.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    "Finally, one thing that made the D.VII (and Pfalz D.XV) so nasty was they could go under a victim, then "hang on the prop" firing upwards"

    I know there's a lot of popular myth and legend surrounding "prop hanging" but the technical discussion I've seen on this in the past suggests its really being able to maintain a higher AoA than normal which gives some advantage, but with the result that the aircraft's speed was rather low (just above stall) and hence could make the aircraft an easier target (and aircraft with elevating guns such as the Fe2 could achieve the same result). I also recall seeing something that said Dr1s were similar in this regard. The D.VII clearly couldn't prop hang in the way a modern aviator would understand..
    I was thinking of the manoeuvre from 5:06 to 5:40 in this clip from "Hell's Angels". A 9-card play



    An overdive (stall, dive, dive), then straight, then climb and non-steep stall, climb, straight, straight.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    [..]There are some advantages if you shoot from above or diving, and some difficulties if you shoot at an overdiving target.[..]
    I like the sound of this - Always liked the dramatic effect of the diving attack.

    /Niclas

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    "Agree some handy rules on shooting at aircraft above the shooter would be worth thinking about - for example allowing "prop hangers" and aircraft with elevateable guns to shoot at higher targets when they are overlapped, possibly a bonus if shooting at prop hangers. Another area worthy of study and development by the house rule develpment experts here.
    That would certainly make my flying Albert Balls machine with only his Lewis on the top wing more of a problem to twin gunned machines.
    Rob.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Agree some handy rules on shooting at aircraft above the shooter would be worth thinking about - for example allowing "prop hangers" and aircraft with elevateable guns to shoot at higher targets when they are overlapped, possibly a bonus if shooting at prop hangers. Another area worthy of study and development by the house rule develpment experts here.
    For the Western acft. with the overwing Lewis gun, I allow a single B draw when cards overlap.

  16. #16

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    So will Ares Games continue with making the rules available for download? I can see that cutting into the sales of this box, but I have always liked the free rules mentality.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by diceslinger View Post
    So will Ares Games continue with making the rules available for download? I can see that cutting into the sales of this box, but I have always liked the free rules mentality.
    I'll probably buy the box anyway. Don't know why - possibly I have a bit of a hoarder gene somewhere in my makeup.

    /Niclas

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niclas View Post
    I'll probably buy the box anyway. Don't know why - possibly I have a bit of a hoarder gene somewhere in my makeup.

    /Niclas
    Yes, me too. On both accounts. I have more minis than I can possibly paint, and I'm starting to have a stack of games that haven't been played. Ug!



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