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Thread: Unbalanced Hurricane ?

  1. #1

    Default Unbalanced Hurricane ?

    Hello,

    In term of gameplay or in term of realism, i just don't understand the stat of the Hawker Hurricane MK.I
    If you listen to pilot of the royal airforce, the Spitefire was very manoeuvrable but less secure than the Hurricane.

    In WoW, the hurricane is exactly like a spitfire exept of the deck "C" instead of "A".
    This plane should have at least 19 hit point or the spitfire should have less.

    what do you think about it?

  2. #2

    Dom S's Avatar
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    Yes and no; the Spit was generally not as robust as the Hurri, but (a) that manifested itself chiefly in ease of repair, which isn't an in-game thing, and (b) it was somewhat countered by the Hurricane's propensity to catch fire when hit from certain angles (look up "Hurricane rash".... ) I'd still broadly agree that an extra point or two of damage on the Hurri might be desireable though....

  3. #3

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    Anyway, in term of gameplay, why should i choose a plane with a deck C if i can have a plane with a deck A with the exact same stat.
    I think it is very weird in term of game design.

  4. #4

    Dom S's Avatar
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    Only if you assume that the object of the designer is to make all planes equal. Which it isn't.... (Heck, there are cards for CR.42s and Gladiators - if you're only playing the "best" aircraft, they might as well not exist....)

  5. #5

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    WoG owes more to realism than to game balance.

    Btw interesting that as a Japanese you have French rank insignias
    Last edited by Kaiser; 08-05-2012 at 03:42.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    WoG owes more to realism than to game balance.

    Btw interesting that a sa Japanese you have French rank insignias
    There is no Japanese User Group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scanetsu View Post
    Anyway, in term of gameplay, why should i choose a plane with a deck C if i can have a plane with a deck A with the exact same stat.
    I think it is very weird in term of game design.
    Easy question!

    The same answer why someone does not want to fly always the fastest, sturdiest & powerful plane.

  7. #7

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    There should be a Japanese User Group then

    Here for JAAF:
    http://uniforminsignia.org/?option=c...53&result=1350

    And für JNAF (but all with blue borders):
    http://uniforminsignia.org/?option=c...53&result=1356
    Last edited by Kaiser; 08-05-2012 at 03:48.

  8. #8

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    The problem is that the Japanese Army and Japanese Navy were more co-belligerents than allies.

    As regards the Hurricane, several Luftwaffe pilots complained that, while it was somewhat easier to hit than a more unstable Spitfire, it seemed to be a flying collection of non-essential spare parts. You could knock off great chunks of it with no apparent ill-effect. Hit just right though, it would catch fire.

    Personally, I'd lower the Spit by 1, increase the Hurri by 1. But then I'd have to look at all other aircraft to make sure they had suitable values in comparison.

    Having had a look at the damage numbers for aircraft, they seem to bear little resemblance to reality. A Ki-43B with no armour nor self-sealing fuel tanks should be half the damage of an F4F3, unless "damage" also takes into account ability to dodge. But then the I-16 is hosed, it was notoriously tough and agile.

    Maybe there's some logic here, but I don't see it.
    Last edited by Zoe Brain; 08-05-2012 at 04:11.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    WoG owes more to realism than to game balance.

    Btw interesting that as a Japanese you have French rank insignias
    That's because i am french, i just love japaness plane :P

  10. #10

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    Hit points must be in essence an abstract thing, or to be a simulation of the reality, they must be divided in several parts of the plane: Engine, Fuselage, Wings, Tail, Systems (cables and hydraulic-systems). In WoW I think that the ratio to create the hit points was: Plane robustness and evasion vs. weapon damage. The only thing is, I think that the authors weren't bold enough in this system. In my opinion the system would be best served if there was two numbers in the hit profile. For example: 16/5 First number: total hit points, second number: Break point number, and when the plane achieves this number cannot go to high speeds, cannot make loops or any hard maneuvre. And it would be this number that gave flavour to some planes: For instance Wildcat vs. Zero: Wildcat: 17/6 Zero: 16/8

    What do you think?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    Hit points must be in essence an abstract thing, or to be a simulation of the reality, they must be divided in several parts of the plane: Engine, Fuselage, Wings, Tail, Systems (cables and hydraulic-systems). In WoW I think that the ratio to create the hit points was: Plane robustness and evasion vs. weapon damage. The only thing is, I think that the authors weren't bold enough in this system. In my opinion the system would be best served if there was two numbers in the hit profile. For example: 16/5 First number: total hit points, second number: Break point number, and when the plane achieves this number cannot go to high speeds, cannot make loops or any hard maneuvre. And it would be this number that gave flavour to some planes: For instance Wildcat vs. Zero: Wildcat: 17/6 Zero: 16/8

    What do you think?
    Its a very nice idea, did you already tried it?

  12. #12

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    I've created the statistics for my planes (based in the information I have from books) but I haven't tried it yet.
    I will, very soon, if my work gives me time for it.

    I play too many games, build and paint too many miniatures for the time I have free. For me the day should have 48 hours and it wouldn't be enough...

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    First number: total hit points, second number: Break point number, and when the plane achieves this number cannot go to high speeds, cannot make loops or any hard maneuvre. And it would be this number that gave flavour to some planes: For instance Wildcat vs. Zero: Wildcat: 17/6 Zero: 16/8
    Make it more like 18/6 and 12/9 and I'd agree.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackronin View Post
    I've created the statistics for my planes (based in the information I have from books) but I haven't tried it yet.
    I haven't even begun to analyse the manoeuvre decks yet - that's another can of very wriggly worms.

  15. #15

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    Zoe: If you make the Zero 12/9 you aren't computing its excellent manoeuvrability, therefore an aspect of this abstraction isn't being used.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    I haven't even begun to analyse the manoeuvre decks yet - that's another can of very wriggly worms.
    I sent Linz data from the Fighting Wings games; you might want to get with him, or I can E-mail you the Excell files.
    Karl

  17. #17

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    What do you think?
    Its a nice idea, but if you go down this route you are no longer playing "Wings of War". The elegant simplicity of the game system begins to be lost, and you may as well move on to more complex game systems that already cater for the approach you are suggesting (IMHO).

    Of course that is not a good reason not to try

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Its a nice idea, but if you go down this route you are no longer playing "Wings of War". The elegant simplicity of the game system begins to be lost, and you may as well move on to more complex game systems that already cater for the approach you are suggesting (IMHO).

    Of course that is not a good reason not to try
    It's a question of balance, I'd say, between simplicity and accuracy. It can always be streamlined.

  19. #19

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    I think there's a pretty fundamental issue at the root of all this though - at a basic level the WWII stats, umm, don't appear to make much sense. For the WWI ones, you can argue the toss over whether a plane should be just over or under the threshold for the next speed band, or whether two 90 degree turns is a bit generous, but the system at a basic level seems more coherent than for the WWII ones. The latter do seem quite badly flawed by comparison, unfortunately.

  20. #20

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    WoW WW2 does not simulate a very important characteristic in plane agility: Banking. The speed that took to bank a plane and thus change from a left to a right maneuver. That said we can always simulate that by making a plane make a straight maneuver when he goes from a left turn to a right one and vice-versa. But that would add more time to the game and my experience tells me that more people will play WoW than Air Force, even if Air Force is a much better tactical flight simulator. So...

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom S View Post
    I think there's a pretty fundamental issue at the root of all this though - at a basic level the WWII stats, umm, don't appear to make much sense. For the WWI ones, you can argue the toss over whether a plane should be just over or under the threshold for the next speed band, or whether two 90 degree turns is a bit generous, but the system at a basic level seems more coherent than for the WWII ones. The latter do seem quite badly flawed by comparison, unfortunately.
    I suspect that explains the general preference for WW1 over WW2 in the WoW/WOG universe. I've tried WW2 but it just doesn't have the "feel" (and fun) factor.

  22. #22

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    even if Air Force is a much better tactical flight simulator. So...
    Ah, happy memories of playing Air Force (and, even worse, Air War - thank heavens for "Flight Leader" to get a playable modern air war board game) in all night sessions at uni many years ago

  23. #23

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    There are games that are "flawed" at the core and that strangely a lot of people do like or play. And there are games that need a "house-rules tool kit" and become pretty fun to play. And without wanting to start a war here I'll point out two:

    Warhammer Fantasy Battles - so full of bad and unreal rules that even when I tried hard to play it, I could not.
    WoW WW2 - it needed some house-rules to work well, but now I can play it having a lot of fun and without the feeling that I'm not playing a WW2 game.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Ah, happy memories of playing Air Force (and, even worse, Air War - thank heavens for "Flight Leader" to get a playable modern air war board game) in all night sessions at uni many years ago
    Been there, done that!!

  25. #25

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    Only problem i have with WGS is that itplay slower than WGF.
    With WGF you have Thinking...Move&Fire,Move&Fire,Move&Fire -> Thinking...Move&Fire,Move&Fire,Move&Fire
    With WGS you have Thinking...Move&Fire -> Thinking...Move&Fire > Thinking...Move&Fire
    The Thinking/Planing stage is what lasts longer.

  26. #26

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    It plays almost the same time both games in my experience. Only the solo takes more time for WW2, but I'm working on it

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
    Only problem i have with WGS is that itplay slower than WGF.
    With WGF you have Thinking...Move&Fire,Move&Fire,Move&Fire -> Thinking...Move&Fire,Move&Fire,Move&Fire
    With WGS you have Thinking...Move&Fire -> Thinking...Move&Fire > Thinking...Move&Fire
    The Thinking/Planing stage is what lasts longer.
    WW II games are faster.

    Don't think so much between the moves.

    To be serious:

    Like WW I - I have an idea what to to do and where to go. This needs always a combinations of turns, that have to be planed and executed in a row.

    If you start thinking after every WW II maneuver, you'll stress your gaming comrades.

  28. #28

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    The Unbalanced Hurricane

    There are no unbalanced Hurricanes, there is death in the shores of the morning. "I'm scared. I fear that you'll leave one day and that I will never see you again." There were tears in her eyes as he finished dressing his uniform. How terribly he wanted to comfort her, but lies he never told her. He cleaned his throat. "The Laughing Gnome will bring me back in one piece, my love." She was the one who had invented his plane's name. The Laughing Gnome. And it stuck. Every pilot in his squadron, the mechanics, the squadron Leader, the all called his Hurricane by that name. And sometimes, as he throttled up its engine, he could almost hear the gentle laughing of his plane. But not now. Not today. Today his plane was roaring a challenge against the German fighters, turning and evading them, trying to sidestep them and reach the bombers with their bellies filled with can-stored death.

    He banked hard to the right, went down a thousand feet and delivered a long stray of bullets against a double engined bomber. It opened up like a flower of light, a scream of a seagull. Then he felt bullets raking the Laughing Gnome and a painful punch in his body, a spear of lead and gunpowder, and then his lover's face covered the sky in front of him. For a moment there darkness followed. And then the Laughing Gnome roared to him. Challenged his will, mocked his weakness, reminded him of his promise. And he fought the pain, he spat the blood on his lips and he focused. A second had passed? Three seconds? The beautiful grey sharks were still following him like hunters leading a prey.

    He kicked the stick hard left, then right, then left again forcing the enemy fighters to guess, to loose their tight formation and then he dove hard only to appear behind them. One shark wasn't fooled by this. The other took the bait. His eight twin machine guns screamed in delight. Eight angels of destruction. Eight fingers of death. The enemy fighter took it all and went down. A trail of smoke and fire appeared like a line drawn in the sky by a child. Then again the Laughing Gnome was shook by bullets. Too close. But this time pilot and plane were as one. He cut sharp in his enemy's way. They crashed against each other. His propeller making a terrible work of vengeance in the German fighter's tail. And they both went down into the Channel. Fellow enemies, pilots, friends that could have been. He saw the German's parachute open and he was glad of it.

    His conscience was fading. He tried to lift his plane's nose so that he could crash land in the waters of the Channel. Darkness was pressing in, against his will. "Don't go to sleep, my love", he heard her. And the laugh of his plane, keeping him awake, his hands in the stick, sweat coming down mixed with blood and will. He finally lost conscience. For a short time. For a long time. Eternity didn't come.

    He was being pulled out of his floating Hurricane by two British seamen. "You were lucky", one of them was telling him while they were taking him to the patrol boat, "your plane was still floating when we arrived. And you made a damn good landing, I'll say". He raised his head painfully. The Laughing Gnome was now sinking. He wanted to scream. "Save him! Save him, please!" But darkness called on to him again.

    In the hospital, only his love, embracing him, knew why he was crying.

    Joaquim
    (Sorry for my poor English.)

  29. #29

  30. #30

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    Thanks, Peter. You are too kind.
    Merci, mon ami Scanetsu pour la rep. Vous ête trés gentil.

  31. #31

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    De rien Blackronin, c'est un très beau texte.
    (No problem, it was very nice !)



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