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Thread: More preview models! Beaufighter and the Bf-110.

  1. #101

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    Checked the L-maneuver deck. One 90 degree maneuver to left & right.

    So they can perform a 90 degree turn in one direction, every second maneuver.

    Think this could save his tiny a** only one time.
    Last edited by Marechallannes; 03-18-2013 at 04:20.

  2. #102

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    1A,1B and 4C against 16 hp: I don't see a happy end for CR42 (or even a 1B and 2C against 14 hp against Gladiator)!!!


    Marco

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I am thinking about new biplanes - 90 degrees maneuvres (even only lowspeed) may be a good way to overturn of heavy fighters. What do you think about this theory Carl?
    Heavy fighters like the Bf110 had a terrible roll rate - if a Gladiator can reverse their turn quickly a 110 will be unable to follow and overshoot. The Gladiator can then turn back and might get lucky. But the main opponent of the Gladiator was the CR.42, when more modern aircraft entered the fray all the biplanes, even Glads and Falcos, suffered accordingly.

    The 110's in fact did very well against Polish Air Force fighters like the Pzl P.11 - CCB (with an extra A thrown in for diving from altitude) against a 14 damage point aircraft will be devastating.

  4. #104

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    I see my theory is quite funny - I'm glad I amuse you It is based on small turn rates and outnumbering of the heavy fighter with two or more biplanes. Honestly, I do not see any other way how to shoot monster like Beau from the sky than outnumbering of it and overturning. Any other ideas how to shoot these new planes from the sky?

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I see my theory is quite funny - I'm glad I amuse you It is based on small turn rates and outnumbering of the heavy fighter with two or more biplanes. Honestly, I do not see any other way how to shoot monster like Beau from the sky than outnumbering of it and overturning. Any other ideas how to shoot these new planes from the sky?
    I think this is the only way. Like for the Tiger in Normandy, you need few Shermans to "amuse" this feline; in the meantime, one has to maneuver to shoot him in his ass ... I remember a title I saw in a magazine : "7 Shermans for one Tiger".

    How many planes to outnumber the Beau ?

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey View Post
    I think this is the only way. Like for the Tiger in Normandy, you need few Shermans to "amuse" this feline; in the meantime, one has to maneuver to shoot him in his ass ... I remember a title I saw in a magazine : "7 Shermans for one Tiger".

    How many planes to outnumber the Beau ?
    Of course, the problem with this analogy is that the Tiger was quite a bit slower than the Shermans; the Beau vs biplanes....not so.
    Karl

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey View Post
    How many planes to outnumber the Beau ?
    Given how overpowered cannons are: I should think no more than two Axis planes will suffice.

    The -110s will be nearly-impossible to kill, tho'.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    I see my theory is quite funny - I'm glad I amuse you It is based on small turn rates and outnumbering of the heavy fighter with two or more biplanes. Honestly, I do not see any other way how to shoot monster like Beau from the sky than outnumbering of it and overturning. Any other ideas how to shoot these new planes from the sky?
    You get your 8 MG armed Spitfire behind the 110 and start tailing and you will blow it out of the sky, it only has one gun behind, and the large base and poor manouverability will make it hard to shake off the small fighter. The 110's were actually reduced to flying 'Lufberry Circles' in WW2 to protect themselves against Spits and Hurricanes.

  9. #109

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    Yes, blindspot is a solution for Me.110, but I must lear how to fly with Me.109 and hit Beau. I think it will be fun - learn something new, improving tacticts May be "Four Fingers:"?

  10. #110

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    I'll mainly use the Beaufighter for the Pacific theater.

    I don't know much about Me190 vs. Beaufighter duels, but to fly the Me110 vs. the allied planes will be fun.

    Am I right, that Beaufighters & Me110 can't perform Immelmanns?

  11. #111

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    I have two desert cammo Zerstorers on preorder at AA (plus some Falcos and Gladiators in desert colours) just for mediterranean theatre scenarios. Along with my three AIM Bf110 miniatures in 1940 scheme there will be a formidable force. Since they were widely used on all fronts, this will give me many scenario options. On the other hand I'm not fond of Beaufighters and do not plan to but them.
    Chaps, I see will be busy recreating desert air war in Prague

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I don't know much about Me190 vs. Beaufighter duels
    Well, me either

  13. #113

  14. #114

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    I can't believe it! They are coming! My Goodness, not knowing that I have just opened a bottle of South African Pinotage, Cheers Herr Oberst!!! To your health!!!

  15. #115

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    Nice and promising photo. I am looking forward to these new miniatures. Thank you for spy photos

  16. #116

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    Wonderful news, Herr Oberst!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Chaps, I see will be busy recreating desert air war in Prague
    Interesting - you can plan with a pair of Bf109s, a desert Spitfire & a desert Hurricane too, Andrzej.

  17. #117

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    Received my email today as well, can't wait for the heavy fighters and biplanes!

    Just out of interest, can you let the forum know how many damage points have been allotted to the 110 and Beaufighter?

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    Wonderful news, Herr Oberst!

    Interesting - you can plan with a pair of Bf109s, a desert Spitfire & a desert Hurricane too, Andrzej.

    I'll take my desert Grumman Martlet....

    Those mini's are looking sweet!
    Last edited by Thomatchef; 03-22-2013 at 07:15.

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Received my email today as well, can't wait for the heavy fighters and biplanes!

    Just out of interest, can you let the forum know how many damage points have been allotted to the 110 and Beaufighter?
    BF.110 = 20
    Beau = 23

  20. #120

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    Great news and can't wait to get mine. Next month next set.

  21. #121

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    Recived my shipment e-mail looking good time to start pestering the postie

  22. #122

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    Ordered a Bf110, a Gladiator and a Falco

  23. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    BF.110 = 20
    Beau = 23
    And what about climb counters for next flight level and maximum ceiling for these two heavy fighters? Any ideas?

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    And what about climb counters for next flight level and maximum ceiling for these two heavy fighters? Any ideas?
    The Beaufighter has a service ceiling of 5800 metres = WGS top altitude 7. The climb rate is recorded as 8.2 m/s = WGS climb rate 4.

    The Messerschmitt Bf 110C has a service ceiling of 10500 metres = WGS top altitude 12. The climb rate 11.5 m/s, which is right on the edge of WGS climb rate bands 3 or 4.

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    The Beaufighter has a service ceiling of 5800 metres
    Thats OK for the torpedo variants 9they had no real need to achieve high altitudes. fighter variants (e.g. the 1F) were more like 8800-9000m

  26. #126

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    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUdbzQCm_Y

    Nice Beau footage of the "ten gun terror"

  27. #127

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    And the makings of a corker of a scenario! Potential for an amazing con game

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(1945)

  28. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    And what about climb counters for next flight level and maximum ceiling for these two heavy fighters? Any ideas?
    That info is not supplied with the miniatures, but it should be in the WGS RAP... but I do not have an open one of those laying around.

  29. #129

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    Got mail. My planes are on the way

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan-Sam View Post
    And what about climb counters for next flight level and maximum ceiling for these two heavy fighters? Any ideas?
    It seems a new R&A Pack or an WoW or WoG Deluxe Version is a must have.

    Contained items in the new R&A Pack:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/alb...?albumid=2041:)

  31. #131

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    It is, Sven. I am really satisfied with the purchase I recommend it.

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    Thats OK for the torpedo variants 9they had no real need to achieve high altitudes. fighter variants (e.g. the 1F) were more like 8800-9000m
    The ceiling for the Mk.IF is listed as 26500 feet (8077 metres), which would be top altitude 10.

  33. #133

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    Here's what the RAP says:
    Beaufighter Mk.IF climb 5 ceiling 11
    Beaufighter Mk.VIF climb 5 ceiling 10
    the Bf-110 isn't in the book
    Karl

  34. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Here's what the RAP says:
    Beaufighter Mk.IF climb 5 ceiling 11
    Beaufighter Mk.VIF climb 5 ceiling 10
    the Bf-110 isn't in the book
    Karl
    No Bf 110 stats? That doesn't sound good....

  35. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    No Bf 110 stats? That doesn't sound good....
    Well, puzzling, at least

    Karl

  36. #136

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    Did these release today or not?
    I see most vendors still have them listed as preorder...

  37. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    Did these release today or not?
    I see most vendors still have them listed as preorder...
    Daniel, in stock and already shipping.

  38. #138

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    Oh sweet! Thanks for the heads up! Decisions decisions decisions!

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by P-51D View Post
    Oh sweet! Thanks for the heads up! Decisions decisions decisions!
    What's to decide? Oh right, how many!
    Karl

  40. #140

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    Exactly!!! Gonna have to wait until next paycheck as disposable income went to four new tires this go around! I have waited this long, what's two more weeks?

  41. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    No Bf 110 stats? That doesn't sound good....
    Well boys, we have the Messerschmitt Bf 110 miniatures but no official word on top altitude and climb counters. I am going to post on the Ares Facebook page to try and get a quick reply on this one.

    In the mean time I am using climb rate 3 (it is 11.5m/s, almost the same as the Hurricane at 11.4 m/s) and top altitude 12 (10000m, Hurricane is also 9990m and rated 12).

  42. #142

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    I bought Beaufighter and Me 110 models from my local games shop yesterday. Both planes have an Immelman turn card in their movement decks.

  43. #143

    Default Messerschmitt Bf 110C Official Climb Rate 4, Top Altitude 11

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Well boys, we have the Messerschmitt Bf 110 miniatures but no official word on top altitude and climb counters. I am going to post on the Ares Facebook page to try and get a quick reply on this one.

    In the mean time I am using climb rate 3 (it is 11.5m/s, almost the same as the Hurricane at 11.4 m/s) and top altitude 12 (10000m, Hurricane is also 9990m and rated 12).
    Hello all,

    I have received the following response on Facebook from Ares Games regarding the Messerschmitt Bf 110C climb and top altitude numbers:

    Wings of Glory Miniature Game wrote: "Here they are: Climb Rate 4 Maximum Altitude 11. We will add this info to the next version of the Errata/FAQ, thanks for spotting this error!"

    So we now have the official stats.

    Cheers,

    Carl.
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 04-08-2013 at 08:29.

  44. #144

  45. #145

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    As soon as I'll grab them I'll insert stats.

    Marco

  46. #146

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    I have made a few researches concerning the Messerschmitt Bf.110 ZG.26 3U-DS and its crew Schupp edited as a miniature by Ares (reference WGS202B) :

    - because of the huge tanks underwings on the Schupp’s miniature, which have always seemed to me to be out of proportion.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    - because of a picture posted by Ares on their official website, showing a soldier near a Bf.110 presented as German pilot Schupp.
    But the standing soldier's uniform does not look like a German one’s but like a British sergeant.


    https://www.aresgames.eu/8973
    (Ares has removed this picture since I informed them of the incorrect comment).


    1) MESSERSCHMITT Bf.110 and SCHUPP
    - Various precisions about the loss of Schupp aircraft :

    27-9-40 / 3290/3U-DS / Bf.110C-4 / III/ZG26 Forced landing after combat, 1 mile SW Kimmeridge. Pilot - Uffz Fritz Schupp
    http://dorset.hampshireairfields.co.uk/dorcrash.html

    Fritz Schupp
    Units: 8./ZG-26
    Awards:*EK 2, Wound Badge, Destroyer Operational Clasp
    Known Aircraft:*Bf 110C-4 WNr 3290 '3U+DS' (lost)
    Remarks: POW 27 September, 1940 when during the attack on Parnall Yate, his one engine was disabled and set on fire by an attacking Spitfire of RAF No.152 Sqn, piloted by P/O A.R. Watson. Both crew were injured when the AC was force landed one mile SW of Kimmeridge, Dorset at 11:45 hours. His R/O-Gunner was also taken prisoner. (Source: Bristol Past, John Penny) His first victory, a Spitfire over England on 18 August, 1940. A 2nd Spitfire over England on 3 September, 1940.
    2 aerial victories for Fritz Schupp
    Date Pilot Name Unit Enemy A/C Height Time Location / Remarks
    Sunday, August 18, 1940 Fritz Schupp 8./ZG26 Spitfire 14:27
    Tuesday, September 03, 1940 Fritz Schupp 8./ZG26 Spitfire 11:26
    source : http://www.aircrewremembered.com/Kra...rch_type=exact

    27.09.40: Target Parnall Yate: III/ZG 26.
    Bf 110C-4, Wnr.3290, 3U+DS of 8/ZG 26
    Uffz. Fritz Schupp (F) POW injured
    Gefr. Karl Nechwatal (Bf) POW injured
    One engine disabled and set alight in attacks by P/O. A.R. Watson in a Spitfire of 152 Sq. (Warmwell). Force-landed 1 mile SW of Kimmeridge, Dorset at 11.45 hrs.
    source 1 : http://fishponds.org.uk/luftbri10.html
    source 2 : http://humanities.uwe.ac.uk/bhr/Main/ww2/8.htm



    Messerschmitt Bf 110C Zerstorer 8.ZG26 (3U+DS) Schupp belly landed England 1940
    Also brought down on 27 September, 3U+DS W.Nr 3290 carries three victory bars on its fin. The fuselage side has a very light mottle applied. The crew of Uffz. Fritz Schupp, pilot, and Bordfunker, Gefr. Karl Nechwatel, survived the landing at Kimmeridge.


    I have contacted Edward Mac Namus, a member of the Battle of Britain London Monument
    (link : http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/WatsonAR.htm)
    Here is his answer :
    “The Sergeant is definitely from an army unit and may even be a Home Guard member, they could be used to guard the aircraft against souvenir hunters until RAF personnel came to inspect and dismantle the aircraft.
    Most likely however is that he was a member of a Regular Army unit sent to disarm the weapons and ammunition and defuse any bombs, though at that time the Me110 did not carry any.”

    At my request, Edward Mac Namus also sent me 2 pictures of this Bf.110 crew, Schupp and Nechwatel, edited in the book Zerstorer-Messerschmitt-110-Units-1940.
    Edward Mac Namus lets us publish these pictures here.







    2) 900 LITERS TANK

    The picture of this Bf.110 C-4 show it without any 900 litres additional tanks under wings.


    Messerschmitt Bf 110C Zerstorer 8.ZG26 (3U+DS) during Battle of Britain 1940

    Actually, those 900 litres tanks were not particularly frequent and have been used for facilitating escorts for transport aircraft that served the supply routes for the Afrika Korps, as well as in attacks on ground and sea targets, over the Mediterranean and Northern Africa, by aircraft of 7. and 8./ZG26 :




    According to the picture comment above, these 900 litres tanks equipped Bf.110 D and E versions.
    No very big visual differences between these versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messer...f_110#Variants).

    (Pictures below from the website : https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-110/ZG26.III.html ).


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 Sicily 1942


    Messerschmitt Bf 110F2 Zerstorer 9.ZG26 (3U+BT) most likely Sicily 1941


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer 9.ZG26 (3U+LT- 3U+MT) WNr 3406 Sicily 1941


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D Zerstorer 9.ZG26 (3U+DT) aerial photo MTO


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+KR) Sicily 1941


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+GS et 3U+FT) North Africa 1942


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+KT et 3U+??) Over the Mediterranean


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+ED) North Africa 1941


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+BS)


    Messerschmitt Bf 110D3 Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+HS)


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+AT) Sicily 1942


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+FT) North Africa 1942


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+CR) Mediterranean 1942


    Messerschmitt Bf 110E Zerstorer ZG26 (3U+CS) escorted by Fiat G50 Italy


    So, the Schupp’s Messerschmitt Bf.110 ZG.26 3U-DS miniature shouldn’t have big tanks for a Battle of Britain version.
    Ares has been informed and they may take it into account in case of future reprint.
    Anyway, it won’t prevent anyone to use their miniatures in a game.
    It is just about historical knowledge.



    3) MESSERSCHMITT Bf.110 C-7 (Pilot CHRISTL)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    WGS202B Ares Bf.110 miniature.
    Note that this Bf.110 is identified as a E-2 version (and not C).

    Last edited by monse; 09-14-2021 at 00:10.

  47. #147

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    Excellent research, Simon.
    Well worth some REP.

  48. #148

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    Very good. I like this kind of historic research.

  49. #149

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    Superb research!

    I'll be certain to make good use of that!
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  50. #150

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    Damn fine research work Simon. Thanks for sharing - Rep inbound

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