Modified Altitude Rules for DoWWII
I understand the intent of the Climb Counters used in the Altitude rules in Dawn of WWII... but I find the system to be cumbersome and inconsistent. I will soon be playtesting some version of the following alternate:
http://www.heckmac.com/PTOT/AltitudeMOD.pdf
Any feedback from the Aerodrome?
I'm not playing DoW yet these days, but those rules have some merit. In the simplified rules I'm coming up with for WoW, I am also doing away with the climb counters. I want to remove as much "record keeping" as I can from actual game play.
I forgot to include this link to the aircraft Climb and Dive Ratings for my PTO PBEM:
http://www.heckmac.com/PTOT/PTOaircraftALT.pdf
I find the rules very interesting, specially the Zoom Climb and uncontrolled dives rules. But I have a question: having twice altitude levels that can be changed much easier and faster than in vanilla game, won't it make harder for planes to shoot at each other if the fire distance is kept in +-1 as in the original game?
I've been discussing this with Col Hajj and considering a further modification to limit the Altitude levels to 8 which represents not the surface to ceiling limits but a smaller portion of altitude in which the fight is occurring. Climbing above 8 or below 0 would be treated the same as leaving the table edges. This method is used in the excellent miniatures game "Check Your 6".
I've just posted my simplified altitude rules.
We play our games that way. Set an altitude band and just use the pegs to simulate the minor altitude levels within the band. As you say going into the next band, above or below constitutes leaving a table edge. It works very well indeed.Originally Posted by Heckmac
Diving rules
One thing I would like to see, particularly in the WW2 rules, is differing rates of dive. Diving into and out of combat were important tactics in both wars but especially in WW2. Our group is going to play its 1st game of DoW this Friday but having looked over some of the aircraft stats, it appears that diving away is going to be a must for early American planes. And as they could often outdive their opponents in real life, a way for them to stay alive.
There should be a way to add this element into the game without giving a whole lot more complexity. This game is great as is, and I don't want to bog it down with needless complexity. But in WW2, some planes tended to fight primarily in the horizontal (such as Zeros) while others relied on the vertical element (any USN plane, P40...).
Pooh
Last edited by Pooh; 10-15-2009 at 09:27. Reason: missing word
Well you could always start at a higher altitude and use, or at least borrow pegs from other aircraft and use them to increase the height. You do hear of other groups doing this on the Yahoo Group. The main problem is that your aircraft, diving down onto the enemy and continuing down, would enter the fight only briefly. The enemy may not get a shot in and you probably wouldn't get another in either. That would be because climbing is so long winded, having to collect climb counters to gain an altitude level is very time consuming and your enemy can just track you and pounce at the appropriate time. Even if you modified the rules for climbing, the same would apply to your opponent's planes and he would catch you at a slight disadvantage whilst you were trying to regain altitude. I think that you would become bored with such engagements and try mixing it in the usual dogfight.
Al
I probably wasn't real clear on my intent. I was trying to cover 2 seperate situations.
1. Diving into combat - A pilot with a plane that dives well could start farther away from a dogfight and dive into it then participate in the dog fight. Planes that are not as manouverable could use this to time his entry into the fight.
2. Diving away from a fight. A less manouverable (and possibly slower) aircraft that wants to break off combat and run for it could now do it. Right now all fighters dive the same so a lower performing plane has no way to break off a fight. (Hence my ealier remark about about per 1943 US aircraft. Most of them dive well but are at a disadvantage in other aspects of their performance compared to their enemies. And historically, they used this ability to stay competitive.
I'm having my 1st actual DoW game tomorrow night so may have a better feel for how the game plays then.
Pooh
Ah, I see. Well I think that for entering a combat like that you would have to create a scenario that would have your aircraft arriving on a particular turn in a specific area of the 'battlefield'. You could have some sort of dice roll to allow your opponent a reaction to the arrival to see if his pilot had spotted your plane diving in, just to give a little baance rather than the plane always coming in with the advantage.
As for diving out, that would be a little more difficult as you say. I haven't read the rules for Fire From the Sky thoroughly yet, but your answer could be in there because that set deals with dive bombers. You may be able to adapt the rules for it and introduce them for certain planes. The rules are available for free download from the Fantasy Flight Games website. (Go to the catalogue section, click on the game and then click support). Alternatively, you could write a rule into your scenario to allow those aircraft to zoom dive for a third time rather than just two as in the existing rules.
Al
I guess I'm missing some thing here. How is this different then how the game plays now? Would it still not take the same number of turns to go from point A to point B (in the horizontal axis) even if you were allowed to drop any number of altitude levels (based off aircraft specs)? Are you going to create longer straight cards to show the increased speed?
For this one, I think you just need to set a minimum altitude level, or hard deck, and once a plane dives below that level, they have left the game. So long as the exiting plane starts diving before his attacker, they would reach teh hard deck first and escape from the fight.2. Diving away from a fight. A less manouverable (and possibly slower) aircraft that wants to break off combat and run for it could now do it. Right now all fighters dive the same so a lower performing plane has no way to break off a fight. (Hence my ealier remark about about per 1943 US aircraft. Most of them dive well but are at a disadvantage in other aspects of their performance compared to their enemies. And historically, they used this ability to stay competitive.
Which, as I said earlier, is the way I play my games - I use an altitude band with four levels, one for each miniature stand peg. If a plane goes out of the band it counts as leaving the fight. The opponent will get the victory even if it doesn't get the kill.
I posted a response on the other altitude thread which said that after playing DoW I don't think that dive rates will actually be an issue. Planes that dive to get out of a fight often get the jump their opponents and so can get away.
I idea I was trying to broach was to allow faster diving planes to get some seperation between themselves and the enemy by diving away. My original thought was (and this was more in regard the WW1 planes) to restrict planes that couldn't dive well (like Nieuports) so that they couldn't overdive and allow exeptional diving planes (like spads) and extra straight card in an overdive. But as I said before, I don't think this is really needed.
Pooh
The usual group of ne'er do wells that I play with has pretty much always used the altitude rules. We don't use the control panel cards, we keep tack of damage, altitude, shots etc on a 4X6 card or a small notebook. No messing about with extra counters.
We also went from using the damage decks to using chips (like DoW) for each damage deck. We have 3 bags: A,B, & C, with chips in them. The chips are the same as the damage decks. When you take damage, you draw the appropriate amount of chips, look at them, record the damage, and announce any explosions, fire, etc.
We also use pipe cleaners for fire(black) and smoke(white). One of our group glued cotton on the pipe cleaners and painted flames for fire and black for smoke. They look nice & are immediately visible to the other players.
Furthermore, another player has had aftermarket altitude pegs made, 50% clear, 50% light blue. It's quite a bit easier to count alternating color pegs to determine altitude. Also we fly with the actual number of pegs for altitude, ie: 7 pegs for altitude 7.
We also have the aftermarket altitude pegs that are half clear and half blue tint. They really help.
For another air game, a friend got some small alligator clips and glued painted cotton balls to them. They clip to the highest peg under the plane and when the cotton balls are stretched out they look like smoke (painted black) or fire (red and black) comming from underneath the plane. We've not yet adapted them to our WoW pegs.
We also got some larger cotton balls and glued them to small bases (we usually use a heavy coin like a nickel) and spray them black and gray. When stretched out they make convincing looking smoke rising from bombing.
Pooh
We are going to have to decide on an easy way of recording fuel usage.
Look in the files section under Game Aides for some altimeters that have fuel gauges on them as well.
Thanks Hajj,
I do think those will help.
Pooh
Pooh,
Who is the manufacturer on the aftermarket altitude pegs?
Thanks!
Art
Art, have a look at this thread for a review of some aftermarket pegs.
Thanks!
Art,
There is a local guy who plays with another WoW group (there are at least 3 in town) who makes some of his own stuff. He had a local plastics company make extra pegs for him. They are identical to standard WoW pegs except half of them are tinted blue. We bought several bags from him and passed them around at our group so everyone can have every other peg a tinted one.
Pooh
That'd be Jeffrey.
Okay, we need pics of these pegs in use posted in this thread now!
Agreed! And would he be prepared to supply some to us over here in dear old Blighty?
Yes Jeffrey is the guy.
He makes a number of cool things for WoW including decals. I don't know if he is interested in marketing them but I'll ask. As for pictures, I don't have a digital camera so I'll have to work with some one else to see if I can get some pics up. Maybe Victor can help.
I'll email Jeffrey today and ask. The best thing would be for him to join this group and post his stuff himself.
Pooh
I would be interested in picking up some of the blue pegs...
Thanks!
I sent an email to Jeffrey but haven't heard a reply yet. Maybe Victor can help there.
As for the pictures, I've lined up a digital camera and we'll be trying to take some shots at my regular Friday gaming night. I hope to have something up over the weekend, Monday at the latest.
Pooh
Altitude pegs
This is a photo of a pair of Rolands at altitude 4 being stalked by 2 Nieuports ( one out of view)at altitude 6. The banding of clear and blue altititude pegs is clearly visible. It makes it very easy to tell the height of a plane at a glance. I hope to have a few additional images later.
The figures in the background would be King Arthur gathering his forces at Baden Hill.
Pooh
That looks very effective! It shows that you can safely use more pegs than those supplied with the models. Very nice!!
For the WoW models, we've used up to 16 pegs (SS DIV) with no problems, we usually fly at 7-10 pegs for most sorties. For metal models I use a solid plastic base to give a more stable foundation. The only real problem we've found is that the metal AEG G IV model gets a bit unstable above 8 pegs.
We've also gone above 10 pegs high with little problem. The main issue is that if the plane is up that high its vulnerable to the accidental sweep of an arm or elbow while people are reaching accross the table. Everyone tries to be careful and we haven't damaged any planes so far.
BTW: We often game on tables 5 to 6 ft across and 9 to 15 ft long. We have a choice of 3 locations and each has a large table which provides more playing area but means people are doing the baroom reach.
BTW2: Victor have you had any contact with Jeffrey since we brought his name into the conversation?
Pooh
Nope, but I'll be seeing him on Sunday at Katie O'Brien's.
I spoke with Jeffrey today, his computer has been in the shop for repairs since last Wed. He'll be back online sometime next week.
Thanks for the update Victor.
To change quota
Hi,
I have already written my opinion; for me the true problem is caused by the fact that the airplanes don't change quota while they are performing an any manoeuvre, instead they performed this thing normally.while a "pilot" is maneuvering, excluding the dangerous manoeuvres, he should have the possibility to earn or to lose a chit.When he performs a climb or a splt S he earns or he loses a level of quota and het doesn't remove and he doesn't add chits to those that he possesses.
Another important thing is to prohibit the Immelman it was a manoeuvre that was not performed during a dogfight in the WWII
Paolo
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