Points values for aircraft on each side?

[Rat of Vengence]

Evening all, I was wondering if anyone uses points values to make sides 'even' in larger multiple aircraft games? Perhaps it is my background as a Warhammer/Warhammer40K player coming through, but I was wondering if that would be a good way of balancing the sides for games I run at my club. Last Wednesday I had 8 boys playing one game, and another 4 trialling WoG WW2, and I noticed that the poor old Germans were getting walloped. It could be that while I have SE5a, SpadXIII and Camels on one side, the best I have on the other is Albatros Dva's.
One solution is to get the Fokker Dvii's I bought from Shapeways built and painted (), but I did think about points values for different aircraft. Anyone do this?

Dave

[Oberst Hajj]

There has been some pretty heavy discussions on points values in the past and at least one or two systems or final values posted in the files section. I also came from a 40k background and thought a points system would be nice at first. Then I realized that the war was not fair or evenly balanced for the most part. This let me to a more relaxed thinking that if the sides were close to even gun wise (A vs. A and B vs. B), things were fine. I give a little more weight to two seaters for their larger arcs of fire, but not a lot. Two scouts of the same gun types as a two seater are a lot more capable.

[Linz]

I have been thinking of going to the other extreme and have game cards that purposely miss match the odds. I would even like to try the fifteen to one scenario just to see how many planes the one plane can shoot down. War is never about even sides if it was then the attacker would not think he had the better chance. The amazing thing is when the underdog wins or inflicts such damage that the aggressor thinks twice about going any further. Eg The Alamo or The Battle of Britain.
Linz

[Jager]

Unless you are flying against planes with significantly different speeds (say Sopwith Pups vs Fokker D.VIIs), than the number of guns is more significant. While the Fokker D.VII and Sopwith Snipe are what I consider "specials" (because of their manuvering decks), otherwise count the guns.
We had a game down in Columbus Ohio yesterday, 7 vs 7 late 1916. The Germans won rather decisively; I think 4 Germans left on the table after the last Allies SPAD7 bit it, and the AA gun was blown up. The big difference: 6 Albatross D.IIIs and a Roland (B/B) against a gaggle of Neuports, SPAD7s and Sopwith Tripehounds. Only 1 Neuport had an A deck shooting.
Karl

[Oberst Hajj]

Karl, you sure you guys were not flying in April 1917???

[Jager]

Karl, you sure you guys were not flying in April 1917???

Well, Cowman said late 1916. Alba d3s, Neuport 16/17s Roland c2s, Sopwith Triplanes....maybe early '17 then??

Karl

[Oberst Hajj]

The way it went, it sounded like Bloody April to me! lol

[Naharaht]

Sides were rarely even in real life combats.

[csadn]

Yes, yes -- in Reality, sides were rarely evenly-matched. That's fine -- FOR REALITY. For trying to get new players into the game, IT SUCKS. It leads to Power-Gaming of the worst kind (I've yet to see the game where someone played anything besides a Snipe or D.VII by choice), and boredom for the poor clot stuck with the inferior equipment. For Historical Campaigns, sure, go ahead and have blowout after blowout; but when trying to bring new blood to the field, one needs a means of making sure the new guy only gets his ass handed to him through lack of experience, not because he took the slowest, weakest plane in the game up against a next-gen job.

[Watchdog]

Yes, yes -- in Reality, sides were rarely evenly-matched. That's fine -- FOR REALITY. For trying to get new players into the game, IT SUCKS. It leads to Power-Gaming of the worst kind (I've yet to see the game where someone played anything besides a Snipe or D.VII by choice), and boredom for the poor clot stuck with the inferior equipment. For Historical Campaigns, sure, go ahead and have blowout after blowout; but when trying to bring new blood to the field, one needs a means of making sure the new guy only gets his ass handed to him through lack of experience, not because he took the slowest, weakest plane in the game up against a next-gen job.

I seriously feel I am going to have a hard time explaining this to the guys at a con in June, where I am going to be the Game Master for WoW/WoG. Many of them would swear by all the gods that all planes are equal, while unpacking a Fokker D.VII or a Snipe and ignoring any other planes. I remember one guy seriously claiming that a Nieuport 23 was as good and fair an opponent for his Fokker D.VII as a Snipe or anything else. Oh well...

I think I am going to run some scenarios there, so that I may avoid the worst cases, while leaving one table for deathmatch dogfights. I think I am going to allow ace skills to give the older planes some teeth.

[Rat of Vengence]

Yeah, thats the sort of thing I mean. If it is being played as a historical simulation (which I do enjoy with my mates), then yes, the sides can be horribly uneven, and getting out of it alive can be great fun.
However, I am talking about kids from 11-15 years, and I want them to not fight over who gets to be British. I haven't even unpacked the Snipe's decks yet! Not til I get the Dvii's happening anyway. Then there is the same boy who always wants to play his A/A Bruget...

Dave

[Max Headroom]

Yes, yes -- in Reality, sides were rarely evenly-matched. That's fine -- FOR REALITY. For trying to get new players into the game, IT SUCKS. It leads to Power-Gaming of the worst kind (I've yet to see the game where someone played anything besides a Snipe or D.VII by choice), and boredom for the poor clot stuck with the inferior equipment. For Historical Campaigns, sure, go ahead and have blowout after blowout; but when trying to bring new blood to the field, one needs a means of making sure the new guy only gets his ass handed to him through lack of experience, not because he took the slowest, weakest plane in the game up against a next-gen job.

Maybe for newbies this is true, but for experienced flyers this as absolute rubbish Chris! I choose a Dr.I every chance I get and seldom go down first... Often flying away victorious over many types of aircraft... I've been flying the Dr.I for nearly 8 years now and it really boils down to how well you know your plane and your opposition's capabilities. I've flown against a guy who did excellently flying a Nieuport with B guns!

[Blackronin]

I don't use points, it's almost always unnecessary, but for those who use them, here it goes my 2 cents:

(Add hit points + Gun Type + Deck type)/3 = Plane points (Rounded to the nearest whole number).

Gun Type:
A guns - 10 points
B guns - 5 points
(Two seater's add all guns)

Deck Type:
A, B, S - 6 points
C - 8 points
D - 10 points
E, I - 6 points
K, H - 5 points
F, N, Q - 10 points
J, G, P - 4 points
L, M, O - 15 points

Examples:
Albatros DVa - (15+10+6)/3 = 10,3 = 10 points
Camel - (15+10+8)/3 = 11 Points
Etc.

[gully_raker]

Dave, one way to balance out in the contest you described between SE5a, Spad XIII's etc Vs Albatross is give the German side one or two extra Aircraft.

[Oberst Hajj]

Yes, yes -- in Reality, sides were rarely evenly-matched. That's fine -- FOR REALITY. For trying to get new players into the game, IT SUCKS. It leads to Power-Gaming of the worst kind (I've yet to see the game where someone played anything besides a Snipe or D.VII by choice), and boredom for the poor clot stuck with the inferior equipment. For Historical Campaigns, sure, go ahead and have blowout after blowout; but when trying to bring new blood to the field, one needs a means of making sure the new guy only gets his ass handed to him through lack of experience, not because he took the slowest, weakest plane in the game up against a next-gen job.

I seriously feel I am going to have a hard time explaining this to the guys at a con in June, where I am going to be the Game Master for WoW/WoG. Many of them would swear by all the gods that all planes are equal, while unpacking a Fokker D.VII or a Snipe and ignoring any other planes. I remember one guy seriously claiming that a Nieuport 23 was as good and fair an opponent for his Fokker D.VII as a Snipe or anything else. Oh well...

I think I am going to run some scenarios there, so that I may avoid the worst cases, while leaving one table for deathmatch dogfights. I think I am going to allow ace skills to give the older planes some teeth.

If you guys are running/hosting the events, why don't you just limit the selection of aircraft? In all of my con events, I never just let the players choose which plane they want to fly. I'll let them pick the paint job from the types that I've deemed appropriate for the mission. Even if it is just a dogfight mission, I set a loose time period for it. That way I can easily exclude the D.VIIs and Snipe if I like. If you have people showing up with their own planes and they insist on using them, either send them packing or require that they swap planes with their opponents for the next mission.

At Origins last year for the record attempt game, we had to use every mini I had and quite a few of The Cowman's as well. The way we kept veteran players from snapping up the D.VIIs was to place each plane and it's components on a paper plate with a playing card on it (all the cards had numbers as we were expecting/hoping for more then 52 players). We let them randomly pull a playing card from a second deck and off they went to find out what plane they would be flying. It work out very well!

Rat, in the case of your A/A Breguet kid, play several missions where he has to go and recon or bomb a target and skew the sides towards the Germans by two planes (if you can). After a couple of games of every German player going after him in his Breguet, he might want a little change of pace for a while You could also only let him fly it in missions that need a two seater.

Finally, for games that have a brand new player in it, give them the D.VIIs and Snipes and make the old hands take the lesser planes.

Remember, as the GM, you guys really are in control of the games.

[Oberst Hajj]

Dave, one way to balance out in the contest you described between SE5a, Spad XIII's etc Vs Albatross is give the German side one or two extra Aircraft.

You could also give them Ace skills. And that might be the best way to handle the "plane X is just as good as my D.VII" guys. Let them all pick their planes and then you balance things out afterwards by giving the lesser planes Ace skills.

[flash]

Well said Herr Oberst - don't use points systems myself as I'd rather a GM be in charge of setting up a scenario - personally I think points are only good for selling models & figures. I wonder who introduced the idea?!

[Blackronin]

I play games where points do help.
When you play a game with a lot of variables, sometimes is necessary to have a common value to be able to start a scenario with balanced or unbalanced with a purpose.
But I mainly choose things by heart and have fun with the consequences of our choices.

But as I'm almost always a kind of GM, I try to negotiate the scenarios with players and when everybody is committed we move on into the fray - destruction and mayhem!

[Watchdog]

Well, I am going to be a "patron" of the Wings of War/Glory block at the Grillhammer 2012 con (this year consisting of independent blocks of many games - WFB/Wh40/Apocalypse, Space Hulk, BGF, Aeronautica Imperialis, Malifaux, Napoleonic Wars, Wings of War/Glory, fantasy chariot racing, Dreadfleet, Infinity...). As the name suggests, it started as a steak grilling, beer drinking and Warhammer FB/40k event. It gradually grew in size and popularity and last year, Wings of War was introduced there too, which was a great coincidence, since it was organized at a small airport, just as this year. Due to many gamers looking for alternative, relatively inexpensive and quick games for cons and tournament evenings, WoW suddenly became quite popular here. Many gamers bought one or more planes. This means that some of them managed to grab Fokker D.VII's and Snipes and as far as I know them, some of them will insist on playing with their planes in any free scenario.

I have some scenarios ready to avoid the D.VII and Snipe syndrome, but there will still be room for free-for-all deathmatches. Hopefully, my preordered bombers from 12-7 Games will have arrived by then and I will be able to run some proper heavy bomber scenarios too. I am going to use ace skills to help those with older machines to stay competetive. I own about 30 official planes so I should be able to accommodate enough players, many of which will bring their own crates anyway.

[Blackronin]

Jan!

You can always use this scenario (or a variation of it):

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Clash-Scenario

It doesn't really matter if they use the Fokker D.VII since probably they won't play with it.

[Watchdog]

Jan!

You can always use this scenario (or a variation of it):

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...Clash-Scenario

It doesn't really matter if they use the Fokker D.VII since probably they won't play with it.

Thanks, that is a great scenario, I am definitely going to use it!

[Blackronin]

Nice. Pictures!!

[Watchdog]

Nice. Pictures!!

I am sure there will be plenty. In the meantime you can see some from Grillhammer 2011 here: http://w40krybnik.rajce.idnes.cz/Grillhammer_2011/

There was no point system for WoW in use last year, I intend to balance the games some though. The points system you presented a few posts above seems like a good idea.

[Rat of Vengence]

Thanks for the feedback all, I just wanted to put it out there to see what others thought. I have been playing uneven sides to make up for the aircraft with more manouvre options. With the Bruget, I have told the boys if they want to fly two-seaters they have to do a recon run. Makes it a tad less appealing, especially with the numbers against them.

We are still playing without altitude rules, but I have introduced collisions now they know how to play. We use the C deck if the base overlaps the peg, and on that deck I have left the explosion card in
Next is to introduce altitude.

Dave

[john snelling]

The group I play with do not use points but we do even out the scenario by using ace skills, limited ammo, ect. One thing about points is the are very subjective my example would be having a choice between a Fokker triplane and a Albatros D.Va against a fighter I would choose the Fokker against a twoseater I would choose the Albatros D.Va. I believe the main reasoning should be using the correct planes for a specific time period and choosing the correct plane for the task.

[csadn]

Maybe for newbies this is true, but for experienced flyers this as absolute rubbish Chris!

Come to the Portland area sometime, and count the number of non [Snipe|D.VII]s you see. I think I've mentioned before the one time I tried playing with a local WoW group, I put down a pair of N.17s, and got looked at like I'd suggested showing X-rated films to a church group; every other plane on the board was a Snipe or D.VII. I might see a Dr.I or Camel if whoever's running the game has more players than [Snipe|D.VII]s, but not often.

[Max Headroom]

Did you show them what-for with your Nieuports Chris...

[john snelling]

Come to the Portland area sometime, and count the number of non [Snipe|D.VII]s you see. I think I've mentioned before the one time I tried playing with a local WoW group, I put down a pair of N.17s, and got looked at like I'd suggested showing X-rated films to a church group; every other plane on the board was a Snipe or D.VII. I might see a Dr.I or Camel if whoever's running the game has more players than [Snipe|D.VII]s, but not often.

That is very sad, you need to find another true wargaming group. One that likes diversity. Our group tries everything and early war to late war.

[Oberst Hajj]

Unless we are in 1918 in KotA, there is almost never a Snipe of D.VII on the table. Heck, even in 1918 there is almost never a Snipe on the table. Most of the Brit flyers perfer the SE5a, even with all the steeps. Now, us German flyers, we always go to the D.VII

[john snelling]

I'm with you Hajj I have all 3 Snipes but never have used them.

[va beach ace]

here is something that I am trying to work out, and if someone else suggested this sorry not enough time to read everything (on my way out the door to the race in darlington) but the way I would like to make the sides un even is this. take some numbers, 50, 60, 70 what ever you want put them in a hat each side then picks a number then that number is the amount of "hit points" (damage) your side has. the you pick planes until the damge equals that number, or as close as you can get. each side ends up with different amount of planes and damage.

[csadn]

Did you show them what-for with your Nieuports Chris...

Didn't have a chance -- they also used altitude rules, and explosions [double-PTOOI!]; so by the time I got down to where they were, most of them had blown up (five BOOM draws in six shots -- and y'all wonder why I don't use that card myself? :) )